Compound Growth

Episode 06 - Retiring Retirement: Redefining Work, Purpose & the Future

• Compound Growth • Season 1 • Episode 6

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What does it really mean to retire? In this thought-provoking episode of Compound Growth, Colin and Wheeler challenge the traditional narrative of retirement and explore how it no longer fits the world we live in today. Drawing on history, personal stories, and economic data, they uncover how the original concept of retirement was designed for a different time — when life expectancy was shorter, work was more physically demanding, and stability came from a single government-backed program.

They dive deep into the current flaws of Social Security, how it's evolved (or failed to evolve), and why relying on it alone is a dangerous strategy. But the conversation doesn’t stop there. They ask bigger questions: What if the goal isn't to stop working, but to achieve financial independence and choose how you contribute? What if staying engaged — through meaningful part-time work, community involvement, or even pouring beers at a brewery — is not just better for your finances but better for your well-being?

The episode also explores the psychological shift needed as we age — how purpose and health span matter more than just a number on a calendar or a savings account. Whether you're in your 30s thinking about long-term planning or already in retirement, this episode will reshape the way you think about your future. It’s not about quitting work — it’s about choosing what work looks like.

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Credits:
Created By: Wheeler Crowley and Colin Walker
Production Assistance: Tori Rothwell
Editing and Post-Production: Steven Sims

I wanna start this with a question. All right, hit me. Are you human? Uh, sometimes I think I'm Dancer, but other times, sure, I'm human. Okay. How do other people know you're human? How do other people look at me and recognize a human being? No, no. What if they're not looking at you? Okay. Colin, I feel like you have, uh, something you wanna share, so I'm just gonna let you dive into this. If you are emailing someone, texting someone, calling someone- Oh, okay. how do they know it's you? Hmm. And how do they know- Hmm. you are a you? All right. So, are you saying they know I exist? Like, let's say that you- Yep. know me personally- Yes. but you receive either a phone call or a text or an email- Correct. and you wonder to yourself, "Is this really Wheeler?" Yes. Okay. How? Exactly. Okay. So, I guess something that I saw when I was in my travels that was very interesting was, uh, a lot of these articles about people being, like, catfished online. Hmm. Okay. And with AI becoming more and more of a thing in our lives- Yeah. that's becoming a bigger issue because with voice recognition and all of these different technologies that are coming out, it is able to impersonate someone almost flawlessly at the moment, and we're at the early stages of AI. So, the purpose of this question is that there is technology coming out now to verify that you are actually a human being. And I don't mean face ID. Have you heard of World ID? I have not heard of World ID. World ID is interesting. It's, from what I understand, a relatively new concept. And what it is is you go to a store, looks like an Apple Store- Okay. and you go in, and there is a orb. the orb- What is this orb? looks at your irises and your hands and all different kinds of biometrics- Hmm. to put you into a database system, so that way when you are online and when other people are kind of interacting with you, they can verify that you are actually a human being. And it's amazing to me that we're in a world now And I guess it's been around for a long time, right? People have been being catfished online for a long time. Mm-hmm. But we're in a world now where it's becoming more and more of a threat. And it's like, if you're talking with anybody via email, if AI can replicate your voice and language, who's to say you're actually talking to you? Okay, so the orb does something to verify you- Correct. whenever any communication is being sent by you. Correct. How do you How does the orb verify you? Well, that's the thing. So, it does an iris scan, it does hand scans, it does all different kinds of stuff- Okay. that this basically means that it has data on you that no one else does. I'm sure Apple probably has it. But the thing is, is that in order to verify you, the companies and platforms that you're on have to have the World ID information, right? Because, like, if you're on Outlook, if World ID isn't tied into that- Sure. then that doesn't work. So, the purpose of this is that security has to advance at almost the same rate as AI in order to make sure that you are not being replicated by AI and that your identity isn't being stolen, because it's more easy now, or it's easier- Mm-hmm. to take over your persona virtually. But then what if the AI takes over the orb? Well, we're I don't know. I, I, I personally, I th- I'm very afraid of this concept, right? Yeah. Like, I didn't do 23andMe 'cause I didn't want anybody to have my DNA. Same, I did this. I didn't do it. Yeah. Um, I, I feel like it's the more you give, the more there's at risk. And you're right, there's no solu- like, there has to be a solution. There has to be, like- Right. an agreed upon process that we can, you know, trust what we are receiving- Yeah. in the world. Um, but I'm really kinda nervous about this. And I think that what we're going to see more and more and more is in-person experiences. It's gonna be even more important to get together in-person, because until there's, like, humanoid robots- Which is allegedly around the corner. But until that happens and somebody's gonna actually pay to build a robot that is me- Right. I'm not that important. I don't think any's gonna, anybody's gonna do that. You never know. You never know. Um, yeah. But I guess it's, it's an interesting concept that the more advanced things become online and the more that it's able to impersonate humans, the more people might revert back to in-person experiences. When we were in the airport the other day, we flew American to Athens from JFK. I walked up to the ticket counter. There was a camera. It scanned my face, knew my seat number, and I walked right on the plane. Right. I'm like, "How does it" Yeah. Like, it doesn't I never signed up for this. I'm sure I did at some point. I think didn't need to get permission. Yeah, I know, but it just knew my face, like- Yeah. American Airlines. Wow. Wow. And I was like, "This is a crazy thing." So, that's how the orb thing came up, because I'm like- How?"How is this possible?" Welcome to The Compound Growth Podcast with Colin and Wheeler, where we talk all things growth. From financial growth to career growth, personal development to societal progress, we explore how each layer builds on the next, compounding over time to shape who we become. Each week, we break down complex ideas and emerging trends into clear, actionable insights, because growth isn't just about numbers. It's about understanding the world and our place in it.The information in this material is for general information only and is not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. Investment advice offered through Integrated Partners, doing business as CoFi Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Integrated Partners does not provide legal, tax, mortgage advice or services. Please consult your legal tax advisor regarding your specific situation. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. All investing involves risk, including loss of principal. No strategy assures success or protects against loss. The economic forecasts set forth in this material may not develop as predicted and there can be no guarantee that the strategies promoted will be successful. Growth- Yes. with Colin and Wheeler. Yes. Today, we are talking about retiring retirement. Mm-hmm. That's my favorite phrase for this subject because I think we have to retire our concept of retirement- Yeah. which is really somebody else's concept of retirement that's been forced upon us to a degree. Totally. All right. So, you read something that you wanted to share. Well, why don't we start with looking at that article? Yeah. So, I actually had an interesting deep dive, a rabbit hole, if you will, into the history of the retirement system. Mm-hmm. And you may already know this, but Social Security. Mm-hmm. The reason why that was started- Yep. was because of the Great Depression. Mm-hmm. 1935, I think was the- 1935. Yep. Did you know that the first person to ever collect on Social Security Do you know this story? No. Ida Fuller. Oh, I've heard this name before. Okay. Okay. Do you know how much she paid into Social Security? Very little.$24. Okay. Do you know how much she got out of it? No. Okay. She got out from Social Security $24,888 in her lifetime by paying in $24. Okay. She was one of the first people to contribute, and she turned her benefit on basically within 2 years of the Social Security system coming out. Okay. But the purpose of this is that, did you know that one in 5 Americans are currently collecting Social Security at the moment? did not know that. And when it was first created, the Social Security system, the average lifespan of someone was basically to 74, 75 years old. So- Mm-hmm. if someone was collecting it, they were usually only collecting it for around 7ish years. Yeah, so the first The s- the starting age was 65. Right? When Social Security started. Do you know the country it originated in? The concept of Social Security? Yeah. I do not. Germany. Huh. Interesting. Everything, like, about our industrialized civilization starts in Germany. That's interesting- Feels like. that it was started in Germany- Yeah. basically right before World War II. Well, no, actually- I guess it Okay. it was, it was earlier than that. It was in the late 1800s. Uh- That's actually pretty fascinating. Yeah, yeah. 1889 was the first time there was an age-based social insurance program and they started at age 70, right? Huh. But the average lifespan was 72. Yeah. Right? So they- Right. would It was not meant to give you like the type of retirement that we think of. And then, '35- Right. Germany also revamped their system and lowered the age to 65 at the same time that we started. Right. Yeah, so I mean, it's interesting now because now you have all of these people retiring and you have more and more strain on the system and the- Mm-hmm. average persons, uh, uh Someone who's 65 years old usually lives to around 85 now- Mm-hmm. is the life expectancy, so now you have 20 years versus, historically speaking, was around 7 years at the time. Yeah. So you have way more people taking the benefit. You now have Medicare tied in, because before, Medicare wasn't tied into Social Security, then they added that benefit in the '80s. Mm-hmm. And now it's like a completely flawed system because the amount of strain on the system by people taking it 2 or 3 times longer than what was originally established- Yeah. it's like, it's unbelievable. Yeah. So that's kind of where we're at with it, which is an interesting framework because everybody relies on this system. Well, not everybody, but a huge portion of Americans rely on this system that was never intended to provide this much benefit. Yeah. Well, I, I think it's really important to understand why this system existed. Exists. Right. Yeah, yeah. So what, what's your take on that, why, why it came into being? The reason why it came into being, in my opinion Well, was it Roosevelt at the time? Yeah, it was. Yeah, so it was Roosevelt. So basically, in the Great Depression, I mean, when everything went bust and you had, I think it was the Bank of the United States or the US Bank, um, rumors of that going bankrupt, and it did end up going bankrupt because there was a fleet of the banking system at the time. Some of this may be a little bit flawed. It's been a long time since I've done economic history- in college. Yeah. But basically, uh, everybody's banks were going bust at the time of the Great Depression, when everything was falling apart. Yeah. And they needed some sort of social relief and some sort of assurance. So the New Relief Deal or New Deal at the time was basically designed to provide a lot of social programs to help people get out of the Great Depression. Mm-hmm. And that was supposed to essentially help people come out of the Great Depression. And, and a lot of studies have shown that it actually did work, but a lot of those things that they implemented at that time did fail, but Social Security stuck around. So it's interesting because it, you know, this is, this is the same thing that, um, when I was researching the, the original not the original, but the, the last big round of tariffs- Yes. that kind of replicated or mirrored what we were going through, right? Yeah. That came out of the Great Depression as well, because we have to protect the farmers, right? Right. And then, like, everybody It's one of those, those great big bills that, you know, starts as just like a piece of paper and then becomes- Huge. like, yeah- Yeah. one piece. And I, I think that when we look for a way to treat a symptom, right, which is just financial instability- Yep. then we're not really thinking about what's causing the symptom, right? And I think that if, if we look at what was happening at that time, right, the industrialization, right? Yep. Everybody going from the farms to the factories, right? And then you have an aging workforce that past 1935, think, think, like, 1935, 1945, 1955, all that cha- all the changes that we went through with the war in there, and then more women in the workforce- Yep. and then the men returning to that workforce and the disruption there. Like, it's, it's been, like, such a journey. And Social Security was there to provide some sort of stability on the way out- Yep. but to your point, a limited time horizon. Right. Right? A much more limited time horizon because it was early '70s that people were expected to live until. Yeah, I mean, now we're at a point in, actually going back to history a little bit, I mean, the reason why it was so important for the farmers was because of the Dust Bowl. Mm-hmm. So I think it was, like, 60% or 65% of farmers basically lost their farm at the exact same time the Great Depression was going on and all the banks were failing- Yeah, well- which was kind of fascinating because you had this perfect storm of a massive amount of issues economically, while at the same time, the agricultural system was- Yeah. on a huge constraint. Yeah. And so it's, it's like an absolute crap storm of stuff. Yeah. Well, it's funny that if you have so much of your economy reliant on farming- Right. right, and then you have famine as a constant risk at that time- 100%. until we created the super wheat in, like, the late '70s- Right. like, famine was always a risk. Yeah. So And I'm not making up that term super wheat. It's such a dumb term. But it's a real term, man. I'm not, you know- It's legit, yeah. Don't blame me for the bad, you know, phraseology. Yeah. But, uh, it's I get why you are, you're in a situation where you have this constant risk of famine. The farms had re- had vamped up, or really ramped up is what I meant to say, their output- Right. in order to provide for the soldiers in World War I. Yep. Right? So then that created a heavier reliance on machinery- Yep. right, and everybody was transitioning to a reliance on machinery. But you have, you have an easily disruptable economy coming from a very farm-based product, right? Yeah. And then you've got financial instability because we've got a very immature market- Yep. right? We're still pegged to the gold- Gold. standard- Yep. right? So we can't just, like, print our way out of these situations. So the country and the people in the country are looking for some sort of stability, and that's where Social Security comes in. Yeah. I mean, stability is kind of the big thing, right? And it's interesting because, you know, technology didn't really exist at the time, so you had less sectors almost working for the economy than you do now. Mm-hmm. Like, it When whole new sectors emerge, that gives you a lot of diversification in terms of your economic output, which is fascinating. Mm-hmm. But at the time, I mean, basically, we were not a superpower when this was going on, you know. Sure. We really didn't become a superpower until after World War II. Right. So, you know, we had agriculture. Yes, we had, um, I'll say, like, the market and whatnot, but it, it wasn't like a booming industrial country that we know now or a technological force that we have now. Mm-hmm. So because of all of that, when if you only have a few legs in the stool, if one of them fail, that's bad. If 2 of them fail at the exact same time- Sure. that's terrible- Yeah.'cause that's gonna cause all the other things to fail. So now segmenting or I'll say, parlaying this into, I'll say, a bigger conversation, which is, if what we're focusing on is stability and retirement, we have the Social Security system that who knows if it's going to be around in the future. One of the things that they can do to, I'll say, prolong Social Security is to push back the retirement date. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which there are countries already doing that. And Europe, actually, several countries are now at 70 for full retirement age. We're still at 67. Yeah. So, if there's a lot of strain on the system, and if people, I'll say, are being forced to work longer, or I'll say it changes to a needs-based program, or things change with Social Security in general, that's going to cause people to rethink what retirement kinda looks like and what those dates look like. Yeah, I think that it needs to be bigger than that. I think they need to rethink what the point of retirement really is- Right. bottom line. But you're right. It Since I started in this business, everybody's been worried about Social Security running out, right? Totally. It's, how can we all be aware of a problem and for, you know, 15 years not do anything about it? About it, right? Well, right. What's, what's different now with Social Security versus 10 years ago? Right. Nothing, except for- Literally nothing. except for the, the problem has maintained, right? Yeah, you just kick it down the f- you just kick it down the field a little bit further. Yeah. But the other issue is Okay, so in the beginning of Social Security, that was the only pension form. Correct. Right? And then you had companies, to attract a better workforce, a more talented- Started pensions. workforce, they started pensions, right? Right. And then they realized, well, that's not sustainable- Right.'cause they're not the government, right? Right. Yeah. They, they can't just print money. Um, so pensions become unsustainable, and what they really need is people to self-fund their own pension. Hence, 401K. Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. So, the, and all the, you know, the retirement accounts, the IRA, the Roth IRA, the 401K, the 43B- Right. whatever it might be. Right. Uh, and some countries recognize this problem. I think it's Australia, where you have to- Mm-hmm. you're required to contribute to your 401K. Yep. Right? Like, it's You are responsible for your sustained retirement, right? Right. And the Social Security is supposed to be like that, but it's also a very, like, socially giving concept, you know? Yes. The reason that Ida- Yep. was paid $24,000 is because somebody else, and I don't know if that number's quite right, but- Right. Yeah. somebody else was funding that, right? Well, right. I mean, the big thing at the time when FDR proposed Social Security, he was, like, completely chastised for being a socialist. Yeah. You know, everybody looked at this as like, "You are now the devil." Yeah. You know, like, "This is socialism." And very many people hated on the concept, in general- Mm-hmm. because it's something new and it's something different, but you are right that it was, and it still is, a lot of the times, the government supporting this. Yeah. Especially when you look at the fact that, you know, if you look at the upper brackets and the way the tax system works, you only contribute to Social Security up to $168,000 of income. Yeah. So, if you make a million dollars, your, you know, as near as makes no difference, $830,000 of additional income on top- Mm-hmm. of that 168 isn't being taxed and contributed towards Social Security. Yeah. Now that, also, at the same time, they're capped on how much they get for Social Security- Totally. but max Social Security is in, like, the 40,000 range, somewhere in the 40s. Yeah. Right? And it's, and it goes up every year because of COLA. Yeah. So, it, it's interesting that it is kind of like a socialistic system in the sense that everybody does get a piece of it at the moment. But the problem is now, is that it's grown so much where if you were to take it away- Mm-hmm. you know, so many people rely on it now. Like, it genuinely pulls people out of horrible issues because now you have disability tied into there- Mm-hmm. you have Medicare tied into there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's even at the point where if something happens to me- Right. right, right now then my daughter would get my Social Security benefit at a discounted level- Right. up through age 18. Yep. Right? So it's, it, it's, it's a greater good- It is. concept. Yeah. And the problem with it isn't, I think, the concept, it's just that we've never really learned how to adjust for the needs base, right? Correct. If people are going to live longer and they, you know, they say that if you can get through the next 4 or 5 years without dying of something stupid then your lifespan is going to really increase in a very meaningful way. And that doesn't mean your health span, it doesn't mean that you're able to actually enjoy that life- Right. or to contribute to society, but I think what, what we've, what funny enough we've done here is we've created a system that is meant to be for the benefit of society at large. Yep. Right? Just to make sure that we are taking care of people as they age but we are treating the people as if they are unable to take care of themselves- Right. or contribute to society after a certain point, at 67, at 70, at 72, whatever it is you are a dried up vegetable and you are no longer- able to contribute to society. Thank you for your service. Yep. Here is a pension that may go away and you better give us your vote so it doesn't. Right. And that's a very, it's a very Western way of thinking about things because if you go to somewhere like Japan, that's not the norm. Right. It's more like you still have a value to society at elder ages and I think that, I personally believe that there's still a lot of value that people can give in some way, shape, or form, right? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. We have a, um, a client that I talk to about this, uh, a good amount and something that he says is, "It's my, you know, life expectancy is irrelevant." Mm-hmm."My health expectancy is the most important thing." Yeah.'Cause if I am able to go and do and live the life that I wanna live, it doesn't matter to me if I'm 65, 75, or 85. Mm-hmm. If I can go skiing, if I can travel, if I can do this stuff, then that's great, but if I have to work till I'm 72 and my health expectancy retired, so to speak, at 62- Mm-hmm. to the point where I have maybe back issues or health issues and I'm not- Yeah. able to go and enjoy my life and whatnot- Yeah. then what was the point? Mm-hmm. And on top of that, what's interesting about Social Security is we're fortunate in the sense that we work in an office. Mm-hmm. So it's very comfortable. We're sitting in comfortable chairs right now talking into a microphone. Yeah. Yeah. Someone who's in construction or someone who has a very labor-intensive job physically probably can't do that job past a certain point. Like I was, um, at dinner last night with someone who works for, I think it's called I can't remember the, um, name of the government agency, but he basically patrols and boards the fishing vessels in Alaska to check on their fish to make sure there's no sort of, like, issues going on or illegal fishing or ill reporting. Yeah. It's a very fascinating job- Yeah, yeah. but, you know, they're in super tough seas, he's going between different boats, he's all over the place. It's a very intensive situation. The government requires him to be done at 57. Yeah. Because they see that he can't maybe physically do his job as well past a certain point, just s- statistically speaking. So when we think about the way that people are in these systems and whatnot, um, I agree that it comes down to your health and I agree that, you know, people maybe shouldn't necessarily be fully reliant on a system that shouldn't be here. But for some people, um, who are more labor-intensive, like, you have to have some sort of assurance there. I agree that there should be assurance. I feel like I think about my brother, right? So he's- Yep. a mechanic. Uh, he cannot continue to do this for another 20 years. Totally. Right? That's th- the career that he's in right now- Yeah. I don't think it should be the last thing he ever does to make money, and I don't think- Totally. it will be, honestly. Right. Yeah, I mean, well something that's kind of interesting is, um, Austria is, I think, the country that basically all young men are required to serve in the army. Mm-hmm. Israel's like that, I think, too. Yeah, when they're young, to a certain point. Yeah. And then once they're done with being in the army up until, I don't know the age, let's just say 24 years old, then they can go and move on to a different job. Yeah. It's almost as if, like, i- something that's interesting about this, as you were talking this just came to mind because they're getting the more labor-intensive stuff out of the way while they're young and then they can graduate onto different positions while they're later on, and I wonder if that would be an interesting structure that people move into positions that are less labor intensive as they get older. Yeah. So my father-in-law, librarian- Mm-hmm. right? Um, and that's a very, uh, perhaps dismissive way to say that, you know, he was the d- he was the library director, you know- Sure. he, he really worked his way up in his- Yeah. career. He retired, but he wants to stay busy and he also wants to travel freely. Yeah. So he found roles at other libraries that required less of him-Mm-hmm. But still appreciated his skill set. Yep. So he's, you know, in his retirement, worked at 3 or 4 libraries in the area here. One of those libraries just, essentially offered him an interim director job, right? Oh, cool. And that was another like, you know, he thought it would be 20 hours a week, but it was gonna be like 40 hours a week and he said, "That's not what I can do. I'm, I can't do that job." Yeah. Right? Or, "I could and it would just drain me." And it would get in the way of the travel schedule that I've worked hard to, to find, right? Yeah. Isn't it still providing or contributing to society if he works 10 hours a week, right? Right. Supplement that with, you know, a state pension. Supplement that with Social Security. Like, supplement that with his retirement savings- Right. but it's all working together to fund the lifestyle that he's worked hard to achieve, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess if you never, if you never, I'll say, retired, um, meaning that you found some way to contribute to society even if it was for a few hours a week- Mm-hmm. or something like that, and if you were able to continue to pull in some additional funds when you were retired by doing something that you enjoyed or doing something that wasn't laborious- Mm-hmm. but, you know, was available for you, then that would completely change the system. Yeah. You know? Yeah. There's a, y- you know, there are some places I like to go. There's a, a hotel in Stowe that has a guy that's, you know, at least 72 years old, but he's in, I forget what the, the word is, but the guy you wanna go and ask for, "Hey, where should I go to dinner?" Right. That type of stuff, right? Or, you know, there are some breweries that I go to that have some older people there that are just pouring the drinks- Yeah. and just making sure everybody's having a good time, and those are, they're contributing to people's experiences. And I don't know that, I don't think the government should require this, by the way. I feel like s- No, of course not. I feel like we as a society should expect this from people if they're able to contribute. Right? Right. And I think the people should con- should expect this to a degree as well because this is how you, you know, you get busy living or you get busy dying, right? Of course. You stay active. You have purpose. We were talking about this yesterday, uh, there's some influencer and we were talking about, you know, her success and I said, "Well, it depends on your definition of success." Right. And what I meant by that isn't necessarily the car that you drive or how many followers you have, but what you are doing for society and what you are doing for yourself. And those 2 things don't have to be independent. They can work in tandem. But if you are providing some sort of meaning to the world, some sort of value to the world, then I th- I think that you should be able to find some notion of success in that. And I think when we work really hard to achieve kind of like a FIRE lifestyle of, you know, financially independent, retire early- Mm-hmm. financial independence is amazing. I think you should work if you want to work, not because you have to work. Right. And I think that people will want to work if they expect more of themselves and the people around them. The movie, The Intern. Mm-hmm. The premise of that movie is actually what we're talking about right now. Mm-hmm. And he was, he had lost his wife to cancer and he was in his late 70s, early 80s, and didn't just wanna sit around all day every day. Yeah. And I'm not saying that that's the case with retirees, but actually a lot of people when they retire go into depression. Mm-hmm. That is super common because you don't feel as if you have a place. Yeah. And if you've spent your whole life, or I'll say a huge chunk of your life working your way up the corporate ladder to the point where you finally achieved a management position, you take a lot of pride in that. And when you leave the workforce, all of that power and notoriety and things that you used to have are now gone- Mm-hmm. to the point where, you know, you're just waking up and it's just you and your family in the morning, which some people really look forward to but for other people, that scares the shit out of them. Well, it's also how they've defined themselves, like the meaning that they found in the world is- Totally."I am this. I am" If you define yourself by the work that you do and instead of making that work just a part of your overall self. Uh, true, but, I mean, how could work not define you to a certain point? Like, let's take a doctor, for example, who's dedicated 8 to 10 years of their life to just get the education, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sure. Yeah. And now people look at them as this, I'll say, um, deliverer of medicine- Mm-hmm. and, like, adding all this value and, you know, you never stop doing that when it's so ingrained in you for so long, and that's, like, kind of the tough part I think. I agree, but I think it also comes down to The reason If I were to look at myself as successful, it would be partly because of the business that we run, but it would also be partly because of the husband I am, or the father I am, or the friend I am- Right. or anything that I do to contribute to the people around me, right? And I would feel personally le- less successful if I were failing in any of those areas, and I guess more specifically, failing in multiple areas at once, because I definitely have times where I am more focused on one area than the other area. Right. Right? I, I think that's fair, um, but to play the counter side of that, you know, if I go back to, I'll say, the points in my life where I've failed at many things- Mm-hmm. um, often those failures often bring the biggest satisfaction to a certain extent. Sure, yeah. Because if the business was to fail, what a journey it would have been and what learnings we would have had. Mm-hmm. So I think you will find failure if you look for it, but you'll also find success if you look for it too. I agree with that 100%, and because I've worked hard to become a well-rounded person- Yeah. if our business fails- You have other things. I'm not defined by that business- Right. then I'll be okay. I mean, it would suck, obviously, right? Of course, yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's really tough when we aren't taught to think of ourselves differently, right? Right. We all have our own versions of success, which is really important. Totally, yeah. don't get to say what success is for you or And vice versa, right. or for anybody else, right? Yeah. Um, but I think, I know I've worked hard to understand what my vision of success is, and I've been able to move in all of those directions because I've- I found the importance I was looking for there. So let me ask you this. Do you see yourself ever retiring, and what does that look like? I 100% do not see myself retiring. Okay. I don't think that I will necessarily always do the same thing day in and day out, but I never expect, or I actually hope, that I never just sit around all day, and I don't blame anyone who does that. Yeah. I think that there are a lot of reasons that we can get in our own way and that other people can get in our way, or life gets in the way, or whatever it is. I don't begrudge anybody anything- Right. but what I don't want for myself is that. I, I want to wake up every day with a purpose and to work towards that purpose. I heard a, um, a funny kind of quote the other day, and it was a guy who was kind of talking about when you know you've given up. And he was talking about how when he commutes into work, and he was going to a major city, I think it was London- Mm-hmm. there's a train that I guess is kind of passing him on the right that parallels the highway. Yeah. And he talks about he needs to race the train because he needs to prove to other people that they made the wrong decision- by choosing the train in the mor- By choosing the train. Yeah. train in the morning. Yeah. And he was talking about how, "I feel like when I need to stop proving that people made the wrong decision by choosing the train in the morning, that's when I've given up." But I guess the, guess the point with that is if you have a purpose and if you have something that motivates you, then that's enough- Yeah. from the sounds of it, to me, if I'm to interpret what you're saying. Yeah. I, I agree. I think you should never give up, right? Right. Um, I also feel like the way I would work if I was that guy racing the train- Yeah. I'm trying to prove it to myself that I made the right choice. I think whatever they do is up to them. Yeah. Right? And I feel like I, I do this all the time. When I- do you ever do this? When, when I'm driving, I'm like, "Should I go this way? Should I go that way? I'm gonna go this way," and then I'm, like, second-guessing- Totally. if I did the right thing, which is- Now I just put it in Google Maps or Waze- Yeah, yeah. so that way it eliminates that decision, but yes, I think about that constantly. Yeah. It's funny, when I was in California last week, I noticed I spent so much time in the car, you know, driving from San Diego up to Pasadena and all over the place, and it bothered me less how much time it took to get to certain places than it does if I'm if it takes me 17 minutes or 19 minutes to get to the office here today. right? Hm. It was almost because it didn't, it just, it didn't matter as much because I was giving into the fact that I was gonna be in the car. Right. Right? And I was still like, you know, following the GPS and trying to pick the right way to go. Right. But if I hit traffic, it was expected, right? Yeah. And it just didn't bother me as much, and I was thinking about that, you know, yesterday when it took me too long to get home, in my mind. Kaylee has this system in her car where she flips on her blinker. If there's a car in her blind spot, it makes a beeping noise. Mm-hmm. Whenever we're on the phone together and she's in the car, she is a aggressive driver, I'll say- and, uh, that's probably putting it extremely lightly. And she feels as if she needs to get to where she needs to go as quickly as humanly possible. And I'm on the phone with her and she's yelling at people. All you hear is, "Beep, beep-beep, beep, beep-beep, beep-beep, beep," as like her blinker is going off- she's trying to cut people off, and I'm just like, "Babe, why are you going fast? How is that a benefit to you?" Yeah. And she's just like, "Well, I'll get home quicker so I'll have more time on the Peloton." I'm like, "You're gonna have an extra 8 seconds-" Because you- I'm like- made that 1 because you cut off- Yep. 18 people in the way and frustrated yourself? I'm like, "Why don't you just enjoy the journey?" Yeah. Why don't you just chill? Yeah. Why don't you just put on a podcast? Why don't you just slow down? Like, it's okay- Yeah. if you do 72 versus 82. Yeah. You know? What's 10 miles an hour going to give you in a 6mile commute? Yeah. That's a, you know what? It's a good point because yesterday I was thinking about next fall when I'm going to be d- driving my daughter to a different school. Right. Right? And I'm like, "Oh, gonna be, you know, it's gonna take me 35 minutes to drive her there and then like 20 minutes to get the" It's almost an hour in the car, right? Right. And then today, I drove my daughter partway to her current school and then I walked her the rest of the way and then I walked back to my car, and I look at the watch, and yeah, that was 35 minutes, right? But it's different somehow- Yeah. because I'm not in the car, you know, or like why I was thinking of it like it was such a big chunk of my time, right? Yeah. But really it's the exact same amount of time and, in fact, more time with, actually spent with my daughter, you know, and we're not walking, which I would much rather be outside walking, but at least we can have a conversation or listen to music together. Yeah. Whatever it might be. It's just reframing and finding that perspective. I think reframing's the key to this because something I heard is, um, basically that I challenge you to find enjoyment in the things that you hate. Mm-hmm. So as a perfect example, let's take washing the dishes. Mm-hmm. Don't really enjoy washing the dishes, however, if you really think about it, it's kinda nice. I personally enjoy washing the dishes. Okay. It does not bother me. someone, someone who doesn't enjoy washing the dishes, let's say folding laundry, whatever- Yeah. task is- Yeah. it's like, okay, well, you know, you're washing your hands. You've got, you know, nice warm water. You h- can take pride in the fact that like you're cleaning something. There's immediate gratification in it. It's kinda quiet around you. Mm-hmm. You've got one thing to focus on. You don't have screen time going on. In the same way, like folding clothes, I don't like doing laundry, but at the end of the day, like when it's done, like you can lay out your stuff perfectly. It's all organized. You know, you don't have other distractions. You don't have to worry about email at the time. Like you can find enjoyment in things if you reframe it, and if I'm going to pull this back to the retirement conversation- Yep. you know, maybe there's certain things about your job that you can recognize that maybe you don't like that you can either find enjoyment and to progress a little bit further or you can pull things out of that to say, "Well, I enjoy these aspects. Maybe I can align this with something that will be a little bit longer term." Mm-hmm. And I think reframing things to find enjoyment is, I'll say, the key to a happy life in my opinion because just like what we always talk about, like if you want to find misery, you will find it. Yeah. But if you search for joy in something that you're doing, you'll find that too. I totally agree with you, and that's why I never wanna retire, right? Mm-hmm.'Cause, you know, if, if it's just I don't If my time is spent working at my favorite brewery and, and just pouring people beers- You're gonna end up h- yeah. very happy with that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's also, it's a commit- I think there's something, some value to commitment, right? You know? Right. If you in- if you say you're gonna do something, you do it. Yeah. And, um, we didn't talk about what you're thinking about this. Like how do- figured it out. Yeah. How- how do you feel about calling at age 72? You know, I- I have a very traditional way of thinking, probably to my own detriment, about retirement, and I'm not sure it's correct. Um, I've always thought that I would retire early and either find something else to do, whether it's teaching, or whether it's another business, or whatever it might be. Um, I don't really know, but I can't see myself sitting still, and I've seen too many clients retire and be unsatisfied to think that that's what I wanna do. Mm-hmm. I also don't really like golf. I- I am good at it. You're good golf, yeah. I'm good at it, you know. I used to play competitively, golf, um, and all that stuff and whatever. But like, it's just frustrating to me now, and I don't find it to be like a- a mentally enjoyable thing. Yeah. In the same way like skiing is fun, but do I love it? No. You know, I'll say my hobbies are often work. Mm-hmm. You know, work to me is obviously work because it's something I have to do, but at the same time, there's a lot of the aspects of what I do now that I do genuinely enjoy. People love reading romance novels and things like that. I love reading finance books. Mm-hmm. Like, I love reading books about numbers. I love reading books about stats. I love reading books about, like, self-motivation and business and blah, blah, blah. So to me, if I'm to go back to when I was a little boy, like, this is kind of what I've always wanted to do, and it's what I see as a hobby. So if we were to sell the business tomorrow or if it was to go under, whatever happens with it, I think I would probably just find something else to do and start at the time. Yeah. So me in my 70s, I can see spending time with family perhaps, but I also always see something going on in my life that I'm entertained by mentally. Because when I'm least happy is when I have the least amount going on. You know? A- a- a non-busy mind is an unhappy mind- Yeah. in my opinion. W- I think it's easy for us in our 30s and 40s to say, "Well, we'll do this forever." Right. Yeah. You know? And you have to recognize, like, our frame of mind and, you know, fast forward 40 or 30 years into the future and think about what we're going to feel able to do, right? Yeah. But your mind is still- There. there, right? Hopefully. Hopefully, right? Yeah. As long as it's there. As long as you can find things to think think differently about or think creatively about, I think there's a lot, a lot to be said for just sitting and thinking, right? That's the old- Yeah. Berkshire Hathaway thing. It is. And I'm quite forward-thinking personally, like in terms of my outlook on things. There's a, um, a- a quote that's basically, you know, you identify with your future self as much as you identify with a stranger. Yeah. So you 4 years from now, hardly anyone ever thinks about. Mm-hmm. That's why so few people are good at retirement planning. That's why so few people understand compounding interest. But, um, I don't relate to that because I tend to not think about the now. Everything I do is like I'm always looking 10 years down the line, which is positive and negative. Um, you know, I would much rather not buy something today than, you know, if I can put the money away and get a better version of it in a few years from now. So for me, the way that I look at kind of retirement and my future life is I could just continue to push things down the road and make it even better and better, but I don't wanna necessarily give up my enjoyment now. Yeah. It's almost sad to think about, "I wanna work as much as I can so I can have the best retirement." I think a better way of looking at something is, "How much fun can I have for as long as humanly possible while maintaining what I'm doing?" 100%. And that's, I feel like it's just as important to focus on the now. You live now, right? Right. You may live tomorrow. You don't know if you're gonna get hit by a bus tomorrow or not. Right. So it's like, if you're working for retirement, I think you should reframe your thinking, and what can you do now that will give you some sense of enjoyment? I mean, Steve Jobs' famous quote is that, you know, if he could look at himself for, I think it was 30 days in a row, and ask himself, "Is this really what I wanna do today?" If the answer to that question was no for too long, then you need to rethink your life. 100%. I think it's- it's so important to prepare for the future that you may have, because you don't wanna get there and be unprepared. Yeah. And I feel there's a lot to be said for, going back to Social Security and our original topic today, not relying too much on other people or systems- Yep. for your success or your ability to live the life you wanna live. And, you know, it's- it's so easy to say that, "I'm not going to do that," right? Right. And you have to recognize that, to your point in the beginning, Social Security is there- to just make sure people can take care of their basic needs. Mm-hmm. Right? And I feel like it's really important that we look at it as that, as just a, a backup plan or it just pays for medical expenses or whatever it is. Yeah. If we can find ourselves in a position to do more than that, to create more than that, even if it means continuing to have a paycheck in, you know, our 70s and 80s or whatever it might be. Yeah. It's, it's a much more honest and probably enjoyable way to go through life. Well, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people work to achieve some sort of goal later on, but why can't you necessarily figure out a way to do it sooner? As an example, like, you know, someone wants to, um, travel more or go to Europe or whatever it might be, like is there a way that you could do a little bit more of that at a younger age? Mm-hmm. Like do you really need to be thinking so pragmatically about the future? Which I know is contrary to what we do- Yeah. as people, but, um, or as a profession. However, like, uh, at the end of the day, you know, you don't know if this money's gonna be here forever. You don't, you're not going to be here forever. You're not gonna be here forever. You don't know your own life expectancy. Yeah. So while we can play with the stats, they're only stats and there's ends of the bell curve. Yeah. And you don't know where you're going to fall within that bell curve. Mm-hmm. So while you should think about retirement and keep it in the front of your mind, think about the goals that you're trying to achieve and can you do some of those things a little bit sooner or can you stretch them out and make them longer? Can you enjoy it for a longer period of your life? Yeah. And does that mean reworking your mindset on menta- on, um, retirement? I think that's a great place to leave the- Yeah. retirement conversation. I do wanna just say one thing about the bell curve. All right, so I saw this something, somewhere and the concept is if you think about how much we care about what other people think of us- Mm. you can imagine a bell curve, right? Yep. And if you start off at the beginning when you're 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, you don't care all that much- No. what people think about you. Yep. And as you get older, in your teenage years into your early 20s, you're kind of like at the peak of the bell curve. Yeah. Right? And then you work your way down. Down. Right? And you get to, hopefully, your 70s perhaps. Right. Uh, and you don't worry about, so much, what people think about you because you're- Right. very comfortable in who you are. Right. Ideally. Yeah. Right? So my daughter, being 11, is- Mm-hmm. working her way up the bell curve. The bell curve. Yes. And I said, "You know, I'm gonna draw this out for her and I'm gonna say, 'Here's where you are right now, here's where you're going to be in the future.'" Right?"What's the quickest way to get from here to here?" And she drew the straight line. And I'm like, "That's amazing. You got it. You get my point." Yeah."This is great." And she's like, "So?" I'm like, "Well, you could just fast-forward and skip all this stuff." She's like, "This is dumb.""This is stupid, Dad." She didn't say it, but she actually did what I wanted her to do and I'm like, "Man, this is so meaningful and impactful." Yeah. And she's like, "I don't, whatever, Dad. Why'd you make me do this? I'm trying to eat my cereal." Yeah. And it just remi- reminds me that, you know, parenting is so hard because you're trying to, like, teach these lessons and you have no idea if they're gonna land or not. No, of course. Yeah. Right? And you also, you can't fast-forward, right? No, no. I mean, you can't. And those lessons are extremely important. Yeah. I mean, you have to go through that bell curve because if you Like, you can't just necessarily get to the other side without experiencing the middle because you're gonna miss out on a ton of life lessons- Totally. Yeah. along the way. She has to find herself and go along that journey. You And she can't fast-forward so actually I think she's the one with the wisdom.'Cause even though I was trying to make a point, um, my point was easily just, like, achieved and done with and out the door. Kayley was talking the other day. She has, um, a bunch of elderly clients that she sees in urology and, um, usually elderly men. And, uh, she was telling me the other day that she had this gentleman in who was in maybe his mid-80s or something like that, an older guy, and he was very complimented- complimentary of her, and was basically like, um, you know, "Are you married?" And she was like, "Yes, you know, I'm married, Joe," or whatever the guy's name is, and he goes, "I figured you were married. You're a very pretty, smart girl, and someone like you should definitely be married and produce kids so that way, you know, we have better people in the world." And she was just like, "Oh, that's so sweet." Like, "Thank you so much." The fact that he was 80s and said that made it okay. Mm-hmm. Right. Because he didn't care. Yeah. Like, he's fully fine with what people think about him. He couldn't care less- Yeah. like, what people think. Yeah. But if, like, someone my age- Yeah. said that, and it could be viewed very differently. Oh, it would be viewed. Yeah. It would be viewed very differently. So I wonder when the bell curve kind of gets to that point where that becomes acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. But it is true that you need to go through that to develop the confidence to be able to say stuff like that in your 80s and make it totally acceptable and okay to the point where Kaylee was like, "That was the nicest thing that someone said to me today- and it made my day." No, it's g- yeah, it's, it's true, and it's funny because, like, you know, is that actually I feel like sometimes we get to a certain age and we say things that maybe just shouldn't be said too. Right, right. Yeah. You know? But right now, where we are today, um, think it's important to Overall, you wanna be considerate of other people, right? Yeah. You wanna make sure that you're aware of your impact on them. Yes. Um, but you don't want them to define how you th- think of yourself. No, of course not. I mean, the only person that really matters when it comes to how you feel is yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lesson that I don't know how long it takes to learn, but I'm still learning it. Retiring retirement is one of my favorite topics, but also one that is easily misunderstood. What we're saying isn't that you haven't earned a rest or the right to slow down and enjoy life, ideally you're taking time to rest and enjoy life all along. Really, this is about removing the term retirement and replacing it with financial independence. Work if you want to, not because you have to. There are many ways to fill your life with meaning. It could be helping family, volunteering, working part time, the point is to stay just the right amount of busy. Purpose keeps you going. It keeps you young. It keeps you living. We want our clients, our friends and family, our community to feel deeply fulfilled. Achieving financial independence allows you to do this on your terms. It's a privilege you earn. That's what we are planning and striving for. That's what we want to help you do. This is why we're here talking you through, helping you clarify your thinking, understand what's happening, why it's happening, and what, if anything, we should do about it. As always, you can follow us on LinkedIn, YouTube, on Insta and TikTok, Compound Growth Pod, or wherever you're listening to this right now. We'll be back next week. Thanks again for listening. Growth with Wheeler and Collin sponsored by Kofi Advisors. Reach out today. Yay!