Compound Growth

Episode 12- Burnout, Boundaries, and the Power of Rest with Jessica Crowley

• Compound Growth • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Burnout isn’t just a buzzword—it’s a global issue affecting individuals, teams, and entire organizations. In this episode of Compound Growth, Colin and Wheeler sit down with their very first guest, Jessica Crowley—certified professional coach, burnout prevention strategist, and founder of Amalgamation Coaching and Community. Together, they unpack why burnout isn’t just about personal failure—it’s about systemic pressures, cultural expectations, and the relentless hustle mentality that drives many of us to exhaustion.

Jessica shares practical, research-backed insights into recognizing burnout, setting boundaries, and redefining what real self-care looks like. From micro-moments of rest to larger cultural shifts, she explains why recharging isn’t a luxury, but a necessity—and why the healthiest and most productive people often know when to pause, not just when to push harder.

Colin and Wheeler also bring their own experiences to the conversation, reflecting on how rest directly impacts decision-making, creativity, and leadership. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, corporate leader, or simply trying to keep up with the pace of modern life, this conversation offers actionable ways to prioritize your well-being while still striving for growth.

Find Jessica:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicamoorecrowley/
SubStack: https://jessicacrowley.substack.com/ 

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Credits:
Created By: Wheeler Crowley and Colin Walker
Production Assistance: Tori Rothwell
Editing and Post-Production: Steven Sims

Do you guys know about Airbnb squatters?Have you heard of this?No.I feel like this is something you would have come across at some point.Yeah.My- my interest has been piqued.But somehow.Okay.So, my friend, Devin, her husband is one of the world's leading experts on dolphins.So, every year, he takes a group of graduate students to various research projects.Right now, he is in Atlanta with some graduate students.So, they're gonna be there for a month.They decided to rent an Airbnb for us.Okay.So, they can make their meals, they have their own space.Yeah.They get to Atlanta.The Airbnb is occupied by the previous p- renters.And they won't leave.They won't leave.I thought you were gonna say it's occupied by dolphins.That'd be better.Dolphin squatters.Said dolphins of Atlanta.Yeah, yeah.Yeah, yeah.So, it's a thing where people refuse to leave and it takes a lot of effort, just like any rental, to get people out.Really?So, Airbnb offered no support.They gave them a refund and said, "You're on your own.Good luck."And they- these squatters just stay there for as long as they want.So, they gave a refund to the people that rented it.Mm-hmm.And it's just on the owner of the place to be like- Yeah."Good luck."But then they also said good luck to the people that were supposed to stay there.Right, exactly.So- Double whammy.They- honestly, it doesn't hurt Airbnb, I guess.Well, no, because then they don't get the revenue for the- the- because people- Anymore.Yeah, the people- Right.who own- It's a dead property for them.You're- you're killing our Airbnb dreams.Well, it's just something for Airbnb and renters to be aware of.Yeah.I've never- Do you want an Airbnb, or have you wanted an Airbnb at some point, personally?I think maybe, uh, that's my other half who's more interested in that.It seems like a pipe dream, but- So, Wheeler, same question.Would I be interested?So, here's the thing.I am not interested in the sweat equity, I guess.Like, I don't know that I really wanna deal with it.Okay.Right?Like, I don't know if anybody has capacity in their lives.Like, we're all pretty busy people.Mm-hmm.And then, like, having to deal with, like- Squatters.squatters or just any- I had no idea that could be a thing.anything, right?But it does make a, you know, a vaca- vacation property more affordable.That it does.Yeah.Right?Yeah.Yeah.We, um, when my parents were growing up, they had a vacation spot in Colorado.And they used to rent it.Airbnb wasn't around on the time- at the time, but they used to rent it to people.And, uh, they were really excited because, you know, they could get this place and then they'd rent it out, which would help pay for and whatnot.But whenever we'd go back to stay in it, it would be, like, trashed.Mm-hmm.Yeah.You know?And then, like, the stuff that they had there would get damaged and, uh, in my mom's opinion, it tainted the vacation house dream.Right.That's my concern, yeah.So they stopped- they stopped renting it.Yeah.But, yeah.It seems like so much work.Yeah.And I don't know if it's worth the- the effort.I agree.And I also- I like Airbnbs.I like- I like the experience of going to these places sometimes.Right.But other times, I'm like, "I wish I'd just gone to a hotel."Right.Like, another example.It's true.Yeah.Um, last month, I took my mom on a little mother-daughter getaway, our first time ever.Oh, fun.And we rented this phenomenal beautiful home right on the coast near Boothbay Harbor, Maine.Sweet.So, it was the off season still, which is how we could afford this huge place, way, way bigger than what the 2 of us needed.But we show up, we're looking around.It's gorgeous.We were like- Yeah."Is this real?"And then, problem number one, this was not the worst problem.Half the windows would not open.And it was to the point where there were stickers on all of the windows that said, "Do not open."So, the owners knew this was a problem.You have this beautiful coastal property.You can't open the windows.There's no AC, so you can't get a cross breeze.Then try to set up the fans to get a cross breeze.Half the fans are filthy and/or broken.Okay.So, all right, still not the worst problem.Then we go to do some dishes in the kitchen.There's no hot water in the kitchen.No hot water.So, I put on my plumbing hat and I get under the sink really have no idea what I'm doing, but I managed to find- Did you YouTube it?No, I didn't even do that, but I figured out where the hot water was coming from.saw it was turned off.I turned it on.Great, problem solved, except there's a waterfall.So water comes gushing out.Solved the problem, but not.But not.So I turn it back off and managed to do a few dishes by turning it on and furiously doing the dishes and then turning it back off.I then say, "I'm gonna solve this problem.I'll contact the person who owns this place."I call the only number that was available, a 1-800 number.That's not a good sign.No.No.No real person.Nope.I was then looped through this whole long thing only to get a chatbot who told me that the issue would be escalated to the local level and they would send out someone to fix the problem.Meanwhile, we've been talking on our last few podcasts about how AI is gonna take over the world.Right, wellWe didn't say it would be a better world, butThat's true.So, I think this is an opportunity for places like Airbnbs to really stand out in the industry, because if you can have an actual human to talk to- Yes, you are.it will make you stand out because this is the wave of the future, where you're not gonna be able to talk to a human.But if you can, that's your selling point.Yeah.Well, I mean, we also know people that they are trying to get medical help- Right.and they're getting pushed to chatbots.Exactly.Right?Yeah.And that'sSo I- I don't think chatbots qualify as AI to me.I feel like that's, like, first wave AI.It's like, we've had chatbots for over a decade, right?So I feel like the type of AI that we're facing in the future is more than just, like, a bad chatbot or a badHopefully, it's a better chatbot.Oh, yeah, exactly.At the very least, it's aBut if AI is supposed to make your life easier and solve problems- Yeah.but you can't actually solve problems with it, then that's when you need an actual human to talk to.So, getting back to the Airbnb thing though, and the squatters.Yeah.How are they going to get these people out?They're not.I don't know.I don't know how Airbnb or the owners will get them out, but my friend's husband had to findScramble and find a new place with his whole team of graduate students.They had to stay at a hotel for a couple of nights.How many people is this?I'm not sure exactly, but it's a good number.It's a group.Including a- so a support dog.So- Oh, gosh.they had to find a place that is also pet-friendly.So imagine this, you go to rent a house with a group of friends.You have spent so much time researching, you find the perfect place.You have a pet-friendly place, so you can bring your dog.You get there, sometimes you have to travel by air.Right.You're, you're in a new city, only to find that you're on the streets.Could be.You have nowhere to stay, unless you can afford a hotel.In this case, they're doing research with the Atlantic Aquarium.The aquarium helped them find a new spot.In the aquarium lobby with cots.Right.Yeah.Welcome to the Compound Growth Podcast with Collin and Wheeler, where we talk all things growth.From financial growth to career growth, personal development, to societal progress, we explore how each layer builds on the next, compounding over time to shape who we become.Each week, we break down complex ideas and emerging trends into clear, actionable insights.Because growth isn't just about numbers, it's about understanding the world and our place in it.The information in this material is for general information only, and is not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual.Investment advice offered through Integrated Partners, doing business as COFI Advisors LLC, a registered investment advisor.Integrated Partners does not provide legal, tax, mortgage advice or services.Please consult your legal tax advisor regarding your specific situation.Past performance is no guarantee of future results.All investing involves risk, including loss of principal.No strategy assures success or protects against loss.The economic forecasts set forth in this material may not develop as predicted, and there can be no guarantee that the strategies promoted will be successful.a new voice with us today, obviously.Unless we put on that special filter that allows Collin to put his voice on.We'll save that for the end, yeah.So, Jessica Crowley is a certified professional coach, burnout prevention strategist, and the founder of the Amalgamation Coaching and Community.Now, I've written a bio for Jessica.She's hearing this for the first time, which is a fun exercise.That should be good.And I'm looking forward to being corrected with anything that'sI say here.She has over 15 years of multidisciplinary experience spanning interior design, higher education, and non-profit leadership.She brings deeply human-centered approach to helping individuals and organizations prevent burnout, and rediscover joy in their personal and professional lives.Through her coaching, speaking engagements, and widely-read writing on Substack, Jessica challenges the toxic hustle cu- culture by offering actionable strategies rooted in values alignment, boundary setting, and authentic belonging.Jessica.Nailed it.I couldn't have- Welcome to the podcast.Thank you.A+.I couldn't have said it better myself.Did ChatGPT write that?No, no, no.No, no, no.ChatGPT is a thought partner- I see.who read all of her writing in 10 seconds.But Wheeler, it's like you've known me my whole life.Yes, it's like that.So Jessica Crowley relation.Uh, Jessica is my wife and life partner, the mother of our wonderful daughter, and the smarter person who lives in our household.Um, so we're looking forward to benefiting from her unique experience and intelligence and perspective today.And we're gonna be talking about burnout, and we're gonna be talking about rest and the importance of rest, and what is rest, and what is burnout and all these fun things.Um, Colin and I have talked about these topics broadly speaking, but you are the expert in this area.So we're looking forward to hearing what you have to say today.Well, I'm a devout listener of your podcast, so it's an honor to be here with you today as your first guest.Our first guest.We are, we are certainly setting the bar very high.So I'm, I'm sorry- Yes, we are.to all of our future guests.So can I start with the first question?Yes, please.What is burnout?What is burnout?I feel like it's something that almost everyone these days understands.If you go to a party and you talk about burnout, I think probably most of the people there would say, "Oh, yeah.I know what that is."Yeah."I'm in it."So I think it's something that if you are burned out, you really know it.You don't need to go online and take some sort of assessment to be told that you are experiencing burnout.Mm-hmm.And at the same time, I think there's a few factors that you can consider when you're trying to decide, am I burned out?Am I just on the road to burnout?Um, one of them is really a sense of, um, depletion.So just total exhaustion and a sense that no matter what you do, it's never enough.And the second is a sense of disconnection.So maybe a sense of lack of purpose or meaning in the work that you're doing and feeling like, again, if nothing is ever gonna be enough, what is the point?And then the third factor is kind of, um, despondency.So feeling like I just don't really care, my heart isn't in this, or pessimism.You show up to work negative every day, and, um, you find yourself complaining a lot.Almost a sense of just going through the motions- Right.to go through the motions.Exactly.So there's, you know, a good kind of stress that, um, allows us to accomplish the goals that we set out for ourselves and to make, uh, progress in the world.There'sThat kind of stress can then snowball, compound, if you will, into burnout when you're not taking care of yourself.Yeah.So that's actually one of the things that I've found really interesting in, in learning, you know, from afar through your work, um, is that burnout can come from multiple different sources in your life.It's not always your job, right?Right.I'm glad you bring that up because actually when it comes to burnout, the World Health Organization has recognized that it's an epidemic, which is great, except the way that they've defined burnout is that it's essentially an individual's failure to properly cope with work stresses.So they've only acknowledged work as the cause of burnout, problem number one.Problem number 2 is they're putting it on the individual to say it's your inability to manage what life work is throwing at you.And instead, the way that I see burnout is actually systemic betrayal.I read your blog last night.And you had a section in there where you were talking about that it was a system failure.Yeah.Can you speak to that?Right.So the reason this has become an epidemic is because it's c- it's caused by the culture that teaches us to hustle and grind.In order to feel value in this world, we have to, uh, measure our value by our netHmm.So in that sense, it's never going to be enough because no matter how much you do, no matter how much you make, there's always more that you can do and more money to be made.Well, it's kind of like we always talk about like running a business and there's no end game.The journey is the growth of the business.And working with clients and delivering better service, there's no end of it necessarily.Right.So you're always on that wheel so to speak.Yeah.So with that, burnout happens when you're just going and going and going and not pausing to take care of yourself because you don't h- feel like you have the permission to do that.Yeah.So what does pausing look like?I think it's different for every person.Sometimes it's easy to think, "I'm just gonna take that dream vacation and that's gonna be the rest, the pause that I need to prevent burnout."What usually happens at the end of vacation?I mean, we just went on one.Exhausted.You, you come back needing a vacation from your vacation, but also you put so much effort and time and money into that vacation that coming back from it, first of all, you have so much to catch up on that is overwhelming and stressful in and of itself.And also, it's never what you might have imagined, dreamed it would be because unexpected things come up.Yeah.Or it could be so good that you have a hard time dealing with the fact that it's over.Right.Reality sets in- Right.and you're like, "Okay.Back to the grind."We talk about this.Right.All right.Back to the grind.Rise and grind.As if, as if this has to be the way.But what's happening is that humans have slowly been treated like machines over time.We've taken humanity out of workers.And I think this is happening more and more as we move into the world of AI.But here's where AIActually getting back to the point of AI, AI can actually do some good for us when it comes to burnout because it can take work off of people's plates-and free them up to do what really matters and t- to have those human connections.So it's not about taking away jobs, but about taking work off of our plate.Well, we've seen that with technology.I mean, inI think we may have talked about this in one podcast, but going back to the 1800s, it used to be a 7day workweek.Yeah.Mm-hmm.You know?And then the Industrial Revolution and the assembly line moved it to 6 days.Right.And that was, like, one of Ford's big things was, you don't have to work every day.And then it moved into a 5day workweek eventually and now, debatably, I mean, most companies and people we talk to are, like, at four and a half.So technology can do some good things to pare it back, but are you really recharging in your downtime?Right.And I think also, at the same time, there's a huge percentage of our population that has to work a number of gig jobs.So we're in the gig economy.Mm-hmm.And they're piecing together 2, 3, 4 different jobs and not getting benefits from any of them.So their ability to make more money comes from their, uh, time and energy to get out there and get in their Uber and pick up more people.Yeah.So it's really a matter of allowing yourself the time to take a day off, but some people can't afford to do that.So it's a catch-22.Yeah.I, I feel like I've always thought of this as, like, I have a certain amount of energy in the bank every day and it gets depleted through various activities.Like, you know, through work, or through parenting- Mm-hmm.or through chores, or through whatever, working out.Right.It all kind of, like, depletes.And by the end of the day, especially when I, when I get home before dinner, I, I hit this, like, lull.And I feel like you have a lull some point in the afternoon too.I do.And it's like, I'm just, I'm feeling exhausted every single day.And then what do you do to recuperate?Jess will frequently say, "Go take a few minutes to yourself."And I'm like, "Well, what do I do win those few minutes?"Like, "Do I go-" What can I get done?I have a, I have all theI have a laundry list of things I want to, uh, achieve each day, right?So that's, I think, m- helping people understand how to take care of themselves, what real self-care is.And also, maybe I would actually push back and say, maybe not everybody does know that they're burnt out, or maybe they're just failing to recognize.They might have some sort of feeling of unhappiness or unease or whatever it might be.But maybe understanding burnout moreLike, when you say, "Are you burnt out," right?Like, or, like, you're at, uhIf somebody's talking about their lives and you're like, "That sounds like a lot," they're like, "Yeah.It's a lot," right?But having the conversation with somebody helps them realize that they're maybe burnt out.Right.That's a good point.And this is one of the reasons why I do this work, because I think the more we talk about it and are really open and honest with each other about we're, what we're experiencing, we can normalize it in the sense that it's a problem that we don't have to just continue down this road of burnout, that there's a new kind of normal that we could strive for if we give each other permission to pause, to consider what you're going to take on.And so I think one of the biggest things is, sometimes you can say no to opportunities that are handed to you.Sometimes you don't have that ability.Sometimes if you're in a certain position at work, you have to do what is, told, what is told of you, right?Right.But we always have the ability to pause and to think about whether this is something that is going to feed your, uh, energy levels or if it's going to deplete you, if it's something that has to happen immediately, or if it's something that you can put off into the end of the week perhaps.But the, the boundary there is in the pause.And so at home, Wheeler and I do this with Mikaela, where, um, even just last night, she wanted an answer to a question, um, as yes or no.And, and I said, "If you need an answer right now, the answer is gonna be no.If you can wait for us to discuss it, then it might be yes.It might still be no.""But if you need an answer right now, it's gonna be no."There's a pause.Yeah.Yeah.There's your pause.There's your opportunity to rest.It might be a micro-moment of rest.It doesn't have to be a huge expensive vacation.Mm-hmm.That's not to say that vacations aren't important.But you can't put all of your eggs in that one basket.You have to take daily, hourly moments of pause.I'll say when it comes to vacation, I often look at vacation as more of an adventure than a recharge.Right.And if I was to look at it as a recharge event, I would almost feel as if there's too much pressure- Mm-hmm.on that vacation to go a certain way.Versus, if I see it as an adventure or something different, or even an expansion, you know, and a learning opportunity- Right.that to me, alleviates the pressure from the vacation.Personally for me, the recharge comes, I hit a lull in the afternoon, and then I'll try to block off some time to go for a run in the afternoon.And that's like my recharge time- Yeah.where I'm not like talking to anybody, it's just me, it's quiet, and I'm just doing my thing.But it's different for everybody.But I've found vacation, like you said, Wheeler, to actually sometimes not be a chore, but to be a stressful situation.Yeah, I mean, I actually think- Not that I don't love it.Yeah, everybody likes going on these adventures that you say, or- Right.But you've said something before that, you know, you have 2 types of vacation where there's a vacation where you go somewhere new and do something exciting and explore the world- Mm-hmm.and there's a vacation where you go somewhere comfortable and familiar, and maybe there's less stress about that, around that area, because it'sYou have expectations going in based on prior experiences.It's familiar.Yeah, exactly.And I think there's a lot of value to that, like to having, uh, like a place, a physical place, if it's a vacation spot, or, uh, a part of your home, or wherever you can be, where that place is a place of rest, you know.Right.Right.Yeah.On that front, so I guess if someone's trying to figure out kind of how to decompress and whatnot, uh, what I hear from people all the time is like, "I love my work.Like I never wanna do anything else," and they like lean into it.These are the same types of people that work like 60 hours plus a week, and they're sending emails at like 1:00 in the morning.And it's a thing.Yeah.I think it's wonderful when you love your work so much that you're willing to put all your energy into it- Yeah.but that's not healthy.No.Because you, just like with your portfolios, you want to be diversified.Because what happens, I've seen this with many people when they reach retirement, and then they feel pointless, aimless.They, they don't know what to do with themselves because they've defined their whole life in their work.And you want to have a wide variety of things that bring you joy and fill you with peace and fulfillment.And purpose, right?Exactly.So that's something we've talked about, like ikigai, right?Yes, exactly.Uh, and purpose, and- Mm-hmm.you know, the concern that if we're moving into AI or like, you know, we, we've talked about, uh, UBI, universal basic income, the other day, right?Sure.Um, but if, if AI is doing all the work and so many people attach their sense of purpose to the work, then they have to, in order to, like, live a fulfilled life, find a different area to feel fulfilled and, and purposeful.Right.Right.I think that it's great when work can give you a sense of purpose and fulfillment, and y- it's important- Mm-hmm.to have other things in your life that fill you with a sense of purpose.Yeah.Yeah.I mean, people have been carving their names into stones and making statues for many, many years now.And I think everybody's gonna wanna have some sense of purpose.And I think the culture and framework that we have right now teaches you that your purpose is through work.Right.And I think that it's important to acknowledge that burnout can come from all different areas of life.Again, not just work.That's the most traditional place that it comes from, but it can also come from the work that is unpaid, volunteer work, caregiving work.All of these things together, um, when there's so much on your plate, it leads to burnout because there's not enough hours in the day.What about other areas of the world that can contribute to that feeling of overwhelm, like that feeling fromIt could be the political climate, it could be just social media, it could be, I don't know, uh, I feel like there are just all these different pressures on us now, and everything needs to be happening immediately.Right.I am the worst at this where like if I have a question, I need to just pick up my phone and get the answer immediately.Yeah.And, uh, there's value to that, but there's also a loss of opportunity to just like, mm, sit in something, you know.Right.Sit with the discomfort of not knowing something immediately.I need to know everything all the time.I know, Wheeler.I also know that.I think, yeah, we're living in a time when we have access to answers at our fingertips.And we can get the information immediately.And we can go on social media, the, the competition and the comparisons are fierce.You go on social media and the comparisons, you feel like everyone's lives are perfect, and so you think that you have to keep working harder and have the perfect job, the perfect family, the perfect vacation, when in reality-Perfect isn't real, perfect is a myth.But that's why I think it's important to talk about when we're experiencing burnout or challenges in our lives, because that's what makes us human.Mm.So if you were to, this is a big unpack question, if you were to redesign the system, what would that look like?Hm.That's a great question, Colin.Thank you.It would look likefirst of all, to answer that question I think I need to dispel a myth from a few episodes ago.Capitalism is not a dirty word to me.So I actually did not say that capitalism was a dirty word to you specifically.No.In our household.In our household.But, let's be honest, our 11-year-old doesn't-really have an opinion on capitalism.There are limited roads on that comment, yes.Yeah.Yeah.Our cats don't really have an opinion on capitalism.Snowball might have an opinion on capitalism, I don't know.Stop calling him Snowball.You know what?That's not his name, Colin.You know what?Brian also thinks that Marshmallow is Snowball.Marshmallow, sorry.Marshmallow.It just happens- Yes.like everybody thinks his cat is named Snowball, it's really odd.Um- Maybe he goes by Snowball personally-and you named him wrong.Just to clear things up, I actually don't think capitalism is inherently bad or good.I think that capitalism exists on a spectrum, and that there's never a completely capitalistic or socialistic society.I think that thereSocieties exist on a spectrum and so therefore there's different types of capitalism.And the capitalism that I don't agree with is the kind that puts other people's needs and wants aside in order for their own needs and wants to be met.I believe that I can participate in a free market system where I can have my needs met and many of my needs, my wants met, but not at the expense of other people.Mm-hmm.And also that we are a stronger, wealthier economy when we work and collaborate together and not compete with each other.And I actually have a great example of this right here on the Seacoast.So, back in 2019 I discovered this little gem of a property that was not, um, in- inhibited by anyone, it was just kind of run down into the ground, but you could tell it was this beautiful, like 1920s, roaring 20s kind of vibe, where back in the day it was beautiful.It's right on the water, and I thought to myself, "Someone needs to take this property and do something great with it."Then COVID hit and I forgot about little Cary Cottage, and then a little while later I read what happened to this beautiful property, Cary Cottage.It was bought by some investors who ended up renovating.The whole thing is now beautiful and they started a startup think tank that, um, inside Cary Cottage now is this amazing organization called Good Work and they helpStartups throughout the, the state of New Hampshire get their feet under them as they're starting a business.And they, um, really help the businesses with everything from marketing to, uh, legal advice, to business consulting.And the best part of this is that when it came to the, the startup, uh, beginning, they w- had a spot for one CEO.So they hadThey were interviewing for this CEO position, right?And they had a ton of great finalists.It came down to 2 finalists for the CEO position, these 2 highly qualified women.The 2 women got together and they said, "You know what?This organization would be even stronger if it had not just a CEO but also a COO."So instead of competing for the one position, they went to the investors and they said, "We propose that one of us is CEO and one of us is COO.And yes, you will have to pay us both-".but here's what we will do with that money."And this was 5 years ago, and now Good Work is such a successful startup think tank that helps so many organizations throughout the state.That's cool.So- Because they collaborated instead of competing.I like that.So if I'm to unpack that a little bit more, it sounds like you agree with capitalism so long as it's not at the expense of both the consumer and also the general basic population.Right.Because I, I agree with you, and I think regulation should be out there to say for companies, "We want you to make money, we want you to be good, we want you to produce products, but not at the expense of everybody else."Exactly."Don't fuel up your profits by hurting other people."Exactly.And I think this goes back to your question of how do we create a society where we create a solution to burnout?Mm-hmm.So I think it really comes down to putting humanity back into our society, and we can do that through ways like encouraging people to take 15 minutes for themselves throughout the day, or, um, to be able to invest in professional development and allow people to have a life outside of work, to get to know your colleagues and, and care about each other,and to make sure that there's a sense of community where you actually care and can collaborate and not just go through the motions and grind.So you just got back from a trip, both of you, overseas.Do you think that this is a US problem, global problem?What were your observations when you were over there?I think that given the technologies today, it is, it used to be more of an American problem.I actually think now it is more of a global problem, which is why the World Health Organization got involved, and the latest stat I saw is that actually over 750,000 people per year globally die as a direct result of burnout.Hmm.So this isn't just a problem of laziness or people not being willing to work hard.This is affecting people's health and lives.Yeah.And I think it's happening around the world because we're connected through technology and there's a sense of competition and countries trying to stay ahead of the curve.So it's not just happening here in the US.I think that, you know, we, I think we all appreciate the concept of leading by example, and I think when it comes to business, that's what the US does.We lead in, you know, w- we basically show how businesses should be run in our opinion, right?And because we create such wealth and we have such successful businesses, other countries look to replicate that, right?The, one of the people we stayed with in London, she works for a French company domiciled in San Diego-and she lives in London, right?And she is balancing 3 different cultures, and she's doing it pretty well because they're not all that dissimilar, right?We can talk about how France loves to strike, for example.Mm-hmm.Or, you know, maybe, uh, maybe some people who work in, in London like to go out and get a pint at lunch or whatever it might be.Like you can, you have these ideas of cultural norms that are dissimilar from what we have here, but at the same time, they're not really all that dissimilar because it's this constant need to increase wealth or that you see the Joneses all around you in every country.It's just sometimes it's Senor Jones in- instead of Mr.Jones.And speaking of the Joneses, I think the way that I look at this is about not keeping up with the Joneses, but walking with the Joneses.Hmm.Are the Joneses walking slowly enough that we can all walk with them?Yeah, what do you mean by that?I mean not feeling like you have to one-up everybody or to have the latest, greatest thing in order to be a person of value in society, but what the Joneses have is great for them, and what I have is great for me.And they don't have to be the same, but we can still walk together- Right.and we can get to know each other.Yeah.I think what's kind of interesting at the moment is the fact that, like, if you even look at our computer chips and things like that, we're not selling those to a lot of different countries out there because we don't want them to get the technology.So our, um, government, in a lot of ways, and certain regulations are actually encouraging the competition amongst us by saying, "We can't fall behind."That puts a lot of pressure on the industries as well, while at the same time, this fear and threat of other countries out-competing us is always, I feel like it's present here.Yeah, it's, it's certainly present, and if you do regulate AI, for example, or if you constrain the companies, there is cer- certain companies, if you constrain them, there's the risk that we fall behind in, in mostly technological advances.Maybe healthcare as well, but not in, I don't know, the cereal that's on the kitchen counter, right?Like, I think that you can't make exceptions for people, and I think where it's, where it becomes really difficult, because I think we're all on the same page that done, done right, right?The government can regulate or essentially help the greater good of their country, butthey also, somebody has to decide what the greater good is, right?And my opinion on social media is not s- necessarily mirrored by the people who are in charge, right?And then it becomes, "Well, who are you to say what I can or cannot do, or what I can or cannot create," et cetera, and then it becomes about this, like, fiercely independent mentality that, you know, is pushed to us as, "This is the American norm."Right?And so i- I think it's justIt's idealistic, and the reason that this is a hard problem to solve is because it's a hard problem to solve.Yes, I agree with that.It's also a hard problem to identify.Yeah.I think that it's a hard problem to identify because it's become so normal.Mm-hmm.And we think that we have to continue down this road of hustle and grind, and we don't have policies that will help people see a different way.So, going back to your question of how do we create a system that supports people rather than causing burnout?It requires policies like paid parental leave, where we support new parents and allow them the time to bond with their children, where we support elderly people and provide the social supports that they need in order to live a healthy life through to the end.And currently, that doesn't exist.And people also are having toGoing back to the idea of having to work multiple jobs and not getting benefits.I think it should be a right, a human right, to have healthcare- Yeah.and education, and these are the things that make a wealthy society.I heard Heather Cox Richardson talk on a podcast recently about the difference between a wealthy nation and a cash-rich nation, and I think there is a clear difference between them.They can be interconnected, but a wealthy nation has free, equal access to education and healthcare and retirement and paid parental leave, knowledge, creativity, all these things that make you well-rounded and lead to innovation.Because when you're just constantly pushing to make more and more and more money, you lose the joy of creating and coming up with new solutions.Personally, for me, and, um, going back to one of your other blog posts, um, you were talking about early phases of being a mother- Mm-hmm.and you had very limited time with Mikaela, and you didn't have any time with Mikaela 'cause you had to work in the beginning.Like, how was that okay, as a country that we're the bests in the world at a lot of things, but you don't have those options?And I even look at, um, my wife right now.She works for a major hospital organization, and she has to take out disability insurance to go on- Right.maternity leave.Right.It's not even offered to her.Right.Are you making an announcement?No.No announcement.Uh, with that being said, though if you look at some of these Scandinavian countries, or even other countries, not just Scandinavia, but around the world, s- 6 months to a year of maternity leave- Right.and it's even the same thing for paternity leave as well.Mm-hmm.They get a huge amount of time because those are very important stages, and how can you raise and expect to have a very healthy country and economy if you can't put time in- Correct.to children?I would argue that most of our problems in society today would be solved if we gave every parent the time to bond with their child.We would not see the attachment style issues that lead to mental health disorders, to gun violence, to drug epidemics.All of these things, I think, really start at the core from our experience as infants, and so this is why I am an advocate for paid parental leave and things like that.I think- Mm-hmm.that's great.I- I think that it wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would solve a lot of our problems.It would solve so many that it would be a compound effect.Yes.However, at the same time, we do have people out there that have their own pain and suffering that they push upon their children, and I'm not convinced that extra time for them to do that is necessarily a good thing- Mm-hmm.because their pain and suffering isn't always related to the fact that they have to go to work, right?True.If you look at the systematic issues, or systemic, sorry- Mm-hmm.issues in this culture along race and inequality, et cetera, you know, time at home with your newborn- Mm-hmm.won't solve that.You're right.It could make it worse.Yes, and I think it has to go hand-in-hand with access to healthcare, and that includes mental health.Mm-hmm.And also physical health, because if you're not physically healthy and you're stressed about being able to afford even just a regular checkup, how can you actually function in any area of life?Yeah.Well, I think, um, you know, no one wants to hire a personal trainer that's 400 pounds and, you know-is hanging out at home all the time, you know.Like, you want, you want to be led by people and have people lead by example, and I think when it comes to our society, um, unfortunately there are a lot of epidemics that aren't the best.And if you can offer more things like mental and physical health, that's huge.Going back to what you were saying, Wheeler, I was out to dinner.Um, this was a while back, maybe a few months ago, and, uh, we were with a few couples and someone was talking about the fact that they had all this maternity leave, and they were really talking about the fact how this person's gonna go out for, like, 6 months.And these were 2 women that were talking, and I overheard their conversation, and they were saying, "That's such crap, you know.Now, she's gonna leave us with all of this work and this is ridiculous."Like, "Why is maternity leave so long?"And I'm like, "These are 2 mothers."Yeah.And I'm like, "This is insane that this is like, you're not supportive over this."Like, as a company, like, I would think that this is a fantastic benefit, but it, that just blew my mind that this is their mentality on things, and Kaylie was really upset about that.Yeah.I think that also comes down to an issue of culture and systemic support.So if companies are also supported to provide their employees with the support they need to cover maternity leave of their colleagues- Mm-hmm.and it's not just about putting more and more work on everyone else's plate, but perhaps there's another way- Yeah.of alleviating that workload, and that gets to Adam Grant has talked about burnout being an issue of people just having too much on their plates.Yeah.Mm-hmm.I think it's also, it comes down to, like, um, there's- there's so many hurdles, and one of those hurdles is, "Well, I had to do this-" Right."so you should suffer the same way that I suffered."Right?That's the healthcare system right now.It's the healthcare system.It's the education system.I had student loans, so you should have student loans.Right.And I had to go back to work, so you should go back to work, you know, 2 weeks after you have a baby.No one gets a free ride.Right, and it's- But it's not always like that, and I think that there's a lot of, if you can see other people leading by example to say, "I didn't have what I needed, so this is why I went and testified-" Right.at the state level about my experience as a new mom."And when Miquela was in the NICU for 5 weeks, I was never given a postpartum depression screening, not once.Yeah.So that blows my mind when I think about it, and fortunately, I don't think I had it, but I'll never know because I never got the screening.Yeah.But, so when I spoke about it, it wasn't about helping me or even my immediate friend group because we've all had our babies.It's about helping the next wave of, of parents.Well, we even talk about that in our own industry.I mean, I know, and you went through something similar.When I first started as a financial advisor, there were 92 kids in my class.Hm.And by the time we were done, there were, I was one of 2.And now I look at it and a part of me is like, "Well, I went through absolute crap for 4 years.""So, for you to come in and, you know, have this great opportunity, that kinda hurts me, but at the same time, I would rather there be better financial advisors in the world that can focus on the fact that they wanna deliver good advice, good planning, all of this stuff, versus having that mentality."And it's the same thing with healthcare.I mean, my sister went through a ton of stuff becoming a surgeon, as did a ton of our other clients, and, you know, I appreciate the fact that you want other people to not get an easier ride than you.But wouldn't our healthcare be, system be better if you weren't working 80 to 100 hours a week, you're exhausted going into surgeries, you're having to- Hm.put yourself through all of this, you're well-rested, you have work/life balance.That's gonna lead to more people and better people coming into the industry.It's tough.Yeah.I- I was just gonna say, I feel like I- I think too many people worry about things being fair.And fair does not mean equal or f- aLike, I, if we stop worrying about what we deserve and what we think is fair, and we really just think about what'sWe care about other people instead of worrying about what's fair to us, I thinkThis is, this is something that they were talking about, we talked about in our lost, in our last podcast, but Bernie Sanders was talking about, like, you know, how Bezos, for example, should pay his fair share.It's impossible to determine what fair means, right?Should he pay more in taxes?Well, yeah, he already pays more in taxes than most people.Should he pay m- even more than that?Maybe, right?But we have to figure out what the need is.It's- it's kind of like, what's the why behind that?What solution are we trying to solve?If we tax this, I don't know, level of wealth differently, will we be able to provide free education or free healthcare?Yeah.Or something like, what- what are we providing by doing this?Because then it's not about what's fair, it's about the goal, right, and how can we achieve the goal?Well, that's what we wereYeah, I- I totally agree with you.To elaborate on that even more-We were talking about the fact that I would be totally fine with paying more taxes, in fact, I would be happy to, if I knew it was going to social programs that were actually gonna benefit us.Right.That's the problem that I see right now is I have no idea where a dollar of my taxes are going.Yeah, you don't- Totally agree.you don't wanna know.I don't wanna know.And- and, you know, we can blame administration and whatnot, but it's a system that was set up a long time ago that snowballed- Mm-hmm.and I'm a firm believer that it matters slightly who we have at the helm, but it's bigger than that.It is bigger than the person in charge- Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.I think you're bringing up an issue of equity versus equality.Right.And there's an important distinction there, which is that equity is about giving people what they need to be on equal playing ground with you, um, recognizing that not everyone starts at the same point.And I think if we were to solve this burnout issue, again, it's really about recognizing what are the problems we're trying to solve and getting on the same page with each other that we will all benefit if we create a society where we're not all burned out, because we'll be more productive, we'll end up being a more innovative country.Well, how many clients do we have a conversation with every week or every month about the fact that, you know, you could retire early, but your healthcare costs are gonna go through the roof and we have to delay it?Right.Yeah.Constantly.Yeah.Constantly.If healthcare was a basic human right as a United States citizen, that would solve a lot of problems right there.So, back- backing up a little bit, or maybe shrinking this down so it's not like we're trying to solve all the problems in the nation right now-um, if we think about burnout and rest and- and self-care, et cetera, I- you know, we have a friend of ours who lives in California, and I was out visiting him, and he said, "I'm really lazy."And I looked at him and I'm like, "You are not lazy.What are you talking about?"Right?And I'm like, "You're not lazy, you just know when to rest."That's smart.Right?It's- he's very intelligent to do that, but he- there's a guilt component, right?Right.So, how do you help people understand that they're doing what they need to do, what they maybe it's just okay-to do, even if it's- it's a want instead of a need?Like, how do you remove the guilt and the pressure that everybody feels from the need for rest?I'm really glad you brought up the guilt component, because it's real.It's also put upon us.So, I think the guilt comes in when it's one of 2 reasons.1, you do what you need to do for yourself and you feel like society is telling you you should be doing something differently.So, it's either that, or you do something, you agree to something, and it's a disconnect with your values.So, it's either you choose your values over what society's values are, or you feel guilty if you sh- think you should be doing something differently.And that is not something that we're born with.That's what's, uh, put on us.I heard something the other day, signal versus noise- Mm-hmm.and I don't know if you're familiar with this, but, um, the gentleman I was listening to was talking about how the most successful people that he knows are actually not very hardworking.Hmm.And he goes, "If you look at a lot of the major entrepreneurs out there, it's not that they work more hours or work harder."He goes, "You know, 9to5 jobs in a lot of cases don't make any sense because you might not have that much work to just be at the office.To be at the office is pointless."Sure.Right.But he was talking about this signal.If you can figure out what activities are going to yield the highest result, just accomplish those things, move on to something else.Mm-hmm.Those are the people that tend to be very successful- Right.and well-rounded.Mm-hmm.And I think that that's kind of what you're- Yeah.saying here.Exactly.And I think that there is also a privilege component that you can't ignore- Yeah.which is that it is possible for certain people to access- To do that.this kind of lifestyle, um, but it should be accessible to everyone, which is going back to that idea of the pause.Uh, having just a few minutes to breathe and center yourself before making a decision, that should be accessible to everybody.Yeah.Mm-hmm.Yeah, I mean, we- And- In the client servicing industry, I feel like we have a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves, maybe even more than our clients put on us, to, like, get an answer.But what I see is the more you do this and, and live this way, leading by example, the more you give other people permission to do the same thing.Yeah.So our friend who, uh, for whatever reason identified himself as lazy, I look at as inspirational because we all deserve to have moments like that.Like, I asked Kaylee, "How do you find the, the time and the mental capacity to take a nap?"Because I want that.I want to be able to give myself permission to nap in the middle of the day.I feel like I would be much more productive if I did every once in a while.If I needed a nap, take it and don't feel guilty.Something I envy about Kaylee, and my mom's the same way, is they say no.And whenever I ask my mom, I'm like, "Hey mom," like, "you wanna go out to dinner tonight?It's a beautiful night.""No, my show's on, I'm good."Like, "You go have fun."Right.And I'm like, "You sure you don't wanna go?"She's like, "No, not interested."And when she does that, it gives you the permission to then- To go do it, and I'm good.Yeah.Yeah.And, and then the next time she asks you to do something and you don't wanna do it, then you can say no, right?Totally, yeah.Because you're like, "Oh yeah, she showed me that it's okay to say no if it doesn't fit with what I want in that moment."I totally appreciate that.Yeah.It be- 'Cause someone saying no also takes a lot of pressure off of you.Right.Which I actually think is fantastic.I think we have to allow, though, for ourselves to, like, remove theAll these things can sound loaded if they're put the wrong way.Like, if, if, if somebody says, like, "I usually take a nap right around 2:00," and you say, "Man, I wish I could do that.I have-" Right."so many things I need to do."Right.Right, like it's- Yeah.You're in- well-intentioned.Yeah.But if somebody is sensitive about the fact, maybe Colin's always walking around saying, "I can't believe you're taking another nap today."Right.And then you say something about it.Yeah.And then, you know.I think that's why it's important to be like, "I admire you for that and I want to learn- Yeah.from you because I would benefit in my life if I could do that better.And if I could turn off my, my brain a little bit more every once in a while."Choose your role models, right?Yeah, exactly.Yeah, yeah.So I think it's about telling someone that you admire this about them and that them talking about whatever it is that is their self-care practice, that you can also learn from it and give yourself permission to do the same.So I would love to do a round robin here.Ooh.Okay.What are the ways that you both recharge?Jessica, you can go first.So exercise is the first one.Okay.I think, um, I try to pick my exercise routine, I work out about 5 days a week, and- Mm-hmm.I, sometimes a har- high intensity cardio workout is what I need in that day.Uh, this morning, I knew I wanted to do a yoga, and, and that's what helped me recharge first thing in the morning.So- So you feel fueled up after that.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.So I think exercise is the best way for me personally.Um- Nice.but also just being able to have a creative practice, and I think this is something that I've started asking everybody I meet instead of, "What do you do for a living?"I ask people, "What do you do for fun?What do you do to be creative?"And it catch- catches people off guard-because we're not taught in the society to be creative just for the sake of being creative.We can be creative to sell what we create- Yeah.but I think it's actually really important for all areas of our life.It makes us happier, more joyful, fulfilled, and allows us the energy to then go and be hardworking in other areas.I find myself asking that question to a lot of people, "What do you do for work?"And subconsciously, you inherently assign value- Right.to that in some ways, whether it's positive or negative or whatever it might be, you know?And I think that the way that you ask it is a much better question.But you're also assigning understanding.I feel like- It is, of course.The question is- Yeah.like, yes, it's, it's, it's probably not a lot of thought that goes into that question at this point.It's very, like, route, like, we just, we do it.Yeah.But it also- It's just like a normal thing.Right.Yeah.But it does, you do understand something a little bit more about that person and it provides for follow-up questions and ideally, like, you know, there are some people who don't ask any follow-up questions.I usually find that to be the case.But yeah.That's true.I think, like, it's, you're, you're asking a great question when you ask, "What do you do for fun?"And I've definitely tried to adopt, not necessarily that, but maybe avoidance of asking, you know, "What do you do for work?"Because I agree that we define ourselves too much by work, but it is still a significant part of our lives and it's- Absolutely.it's worth knowing.And usually conversations lend themselves to go there eventually.Eventually.But when you start out with, "What do you do for work?"as the first question, it tells the other person that's what you value most.Yeah, totally.And that's how I'm going to define you.And also, what about the people who don't do paid labor?Mm-hmm.And then they feel awkward, like, "Well, I'm just a mom."I hear that so often and my heart breaks because it's such hard work.Yeah.Yeah, really tough job.It's fulfilling and joyful- Full-time.but also exhausting.Mm-hmm.And, and so I think with the way we define work is important.Follow-up on the conversation piece, because you're right, it probably would lend itself eventually to a conversation about what you do.But I'd much rather have a conversation with someone about their hobbies and the things that they- Hey.take joy in because it's naturally gonna bring up a happy emotion with them.Exactly.Versus if they're burned out from their job, they don't wanna talk about that.Yes.And I find that to be the same way with me if I go out and I've had a long day at work, last thing I want to do is talk more about work.Right.Yeah.I'm that way 100%.When I get home, I very rarely ever want to share about my day.Yeah, me too.Kaylee's like, "How was your day?"And I'm like, "It was good.What about you?"So how do you recharge, Colin?Oh, we're going to me next, okay.Yeah.Um, I would say I recharge in probably 2 key ways, one of them healthier than the other.The first one is, uh, going to the gym.Mm-hmm.And I find myself getting burned out early afternoon to kind of late afternoon.Mm-hmm.So I like to have my workouts in the evening because if I come home from a long day at work-I'm not engaged at home.Mm-hmm.And I get home and I'm like exhausted, I'm not full of conversation for Kaylee, who's ultimately who I wanna talk to the most.And I find that if I can have a workout and recharge my batteries before I get home, then I'm much better when I get there.So that to me is my recharge.My other recharge is, um, cocktails on the weekend with friends.I love it.I love going to a cocktail bar- Love it.Yes.yeah, socializing with people, the bartender.Okay.Yeah.So what I hear there is because it connects to your value of connection and- Mm-hmm.and relationships.Totally, yeah.I just love being amongst like people and energy.Right.I think what we're getting to here is the importance of understanding your values.So, um, when you do all of these practices, like whether it be cocktails on the weekend with friends or working out at the gym, it's important to understand the why behind it and the principles that are guiding what you're choosing to do for recharging for self-care.Because there's the tools, the things that we do externally, that fulfill us, um, or are intended to recharge us.And then there's the more internal self-care, which is about understanding what is the value that's driving you to go to the gym or to go to cocktails with friends?Hmm.That's a good thought.I hadn't ever thought about it.I just, you just do it because it feels good.Right.Well, and we're often told, "You should work out X number of days per week."Then it becomes an obligation- Yeah.and you lose connection with your why.Yeah.When I had a poison ivy spell- Hm.a few weeks ago, I couldn't go to the gym for a while, and, um, it was kinda depressing.And even sometimes when you're on vacation.I don't know if you guys felt this.Yeah.But when you're not in your routine- Yes.sometimes that's tough too.Absolutely.You know, having a routine is fun, I find.This is why I went for a run in both London and Paris.It was just like, "I need to get out there and do something."And it wasn't like a, a pressure.So tell me about your recharge.So I, I would love to say that exercise recharges me.And I think it does energize me, but it's usually happening earlier in the day.Mm-hmm.So it's not really a recharge for me.I think the things that recharge me, I agree with you about going out and having a drink with a friend.I think that is really hugely beneficial for me.I also find going to the movies very recharging because when I'm doing it right, I'm not looking at my phone and checking in with Jess or our daughter.And I'm just kind of like engaged sitting there watching a story without the rest of the world bothering me for, well, now it's like two and a half hours.But, but- You can see longer movies.Yeah, well, you could.But the problem is they're also darn long.Yeah, that's true.And it's harder for me to find time to do it.And that's where I'm failing.I don't make time to go out and just, you know, go to a local brewery with a friend.And when I do make time to go to the movies, I'm always thinking about what I'm taking away from.I'm taking away from work, I'm taking away from family time, I'm- I feel like I'm really, really bad at this.Yes, you are.AndThe guilt side of things.Right.And so I think actually you're raising an excellent point that the difference between real self-care and this going through the motions because I should do this in order to recharge is what will leave you feeling like it was worth it or not in the end.So, you can have 2 people go to the movies.Let's take that as the example.One person goes to the movies and they sit there the whole two and a half hours thinking about all the other things they have to do afterward, the guilt about leaving their significant other home with the kids, whatever it is, and they leave the movies then feeling more stressed out than when they went in.The other person talked to their significant other ahead of time, like, "I'd like to go see this movie.Does this work with our schedule?"They are able to go and actually just relax and say, "There's going to be plenty of time to get the other things on my to-do list done later.I am allowed this time for myself."The 2 people went and did the same exact thing, but left feeling very differently, right?Yeah.It's because of the work that you put in internally ahead of time.The framing of it.Right.Yeah.Yeah.So, that's why it's important not to just do the things, the massages, the bubble baths, the- This is all, um, I have to credit my, one of my mentors, parasocial mentors, never actually met her, but-Dr.Pooja Lakshmi, and she has a great book called Real Self Care.And she talks about the difference between the internal work and the, the tools, the external things that we do, which can help us to recharge, but we can't rely on the external things without putting in the internal work.Mm-hmm.I agree.Parasocial mentors, that's a good one.I, I like that a lot, actually, yeah.Have you guys seen the movie Air?The one about Nike?Oh, no.Oh, yeah.Oh, yes.That was a great movie.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It was a great movie, but Ben Affleck has a, a quote in that.It was towards the end, and he was talking about running.And he was asking Matt Damon, you know, "Do you run?"And Matt Damon was like, "Look at me.Of course, I don't run."Yeah, yeah.And he goes, "Well, the purpose of running"And, uh, this is kind of what you were saying, isn't the fact that you're going to run 5 miles or do a 10K, or whatever the metric is.The purpose of the run is the agony of the run.He goes, "It's the recharge in the run."Yes."That's the reason why you run.It's not to accomplish something."Right.And it's kind of like when you go to the movies, it's not necessarily to see a movie.It's the experience of the movie and the recharge in the movie.And it's the same thing, like, why I do what I do, or you do with the yoga.Not actually to just- Yeah.do yoga.It's the process of it- Right.that gives you that feeling.And with yoga, everyone could have a different reason for doing yoga.It could be going to- Mm-hmm.a yoga class and connecting with a sense of community.Mm-hmm.It could be doing it at home and just feeling connected to your body and having a mind/body connection.So, I thinkOh, by the way, with Air, I loved that movie, how it really explored the idea of breaking rules in order to innovate.Mm-hmm.Totally.So- Yeah.side note, I loved that movie.Great movie.Yeah.Yeah, maybe I'll rewatch that tonight.Yeah.But yeah, that's a good one.All right.So, uh, we're running long and we can go on and on- Mm-hmm.and on forever with this.Um, but we're not going to.any final thoughts, parting thoughts?Colin, any, any final par- parting thoughts?I think it's refreshing.We're often in the weeds of the business 24/7, and it's nice to take- kind of take a step back and recognize the fact that I may be burned out in some areas of life, and that I may need to recharge in certain areas.Because when you do recharge, you prov- you produce better work.Yeah.And you do a better job.And when we're in the service industry, I think that's important.In, in not just service, but in any job.So, it's nice to have you on and talk through these things, because I find it personally helpful.Yeah.Good.I'm glad to hear that.Yeah.Yeah, it's true.I mean, I can't turn my brain off.I was up at 4:30 this morning, because I was thinking- What are you doing?I was thinking about clients and I was thinking about Loom, and I was think, I was, I was literally emailing to your- You were emailing very early.like 6:00 AM.Yeah, I saw that.I'm sorry.So, like, it's, it is hard, especially when you're own, when you, when you're, we're running this business, right?So, it's not just the service part of it, it's everything else.We care about all this, and we care about our families, and we care about the world, which has also been putting a lot of pressure on me lately.Um, so I think it's really hard to take a step back and think about what we could do differently.And I think ultimately, the theme is, or the message is, let's just slow down sometimes, right?It doesn't have to be all the times.We don't always have to move like a sloth- Right.but occasionally get into sloth mode.It's a marathon, not a sprint, right?Yeah.Do less.No.I think it really comes down to, I think, earlier you mentioned work/life balance, and I think that is bullshit.I think it's totally toxic.Yeah.I hate that.I think that is part of the problem.Yeah.We're taught that you're supposed to strive for work/life balance, and it doesn't exist.first of all, work is part of life.Yeah.As if it's 2 separate things that you're balancing.Yeah.No.It's more about work/life boundaries and how you can make work work for you, and to feel fulfilled at the end of the day.Yeah.So, I think the other thing I really want people to remember is that burnout is not your fault.So, if you're feeling burned out, just remember, it is not your fault.Your inability to manage stress is about the systems that are set up so that we continue hustling and grinding like machines.That's a great place to end.It's a perfect place to end it.Thank you, Jessica, for joining us and being- Thanks for having me.our first guest.Yes.Thank you.This was perfect.It's been good.And, uh, like and subscribe, share with a friend.Yes.Yes.Yes.Especially now that we have Jess on, everybody's gonna pay attention to this.That's true.So, all right.This is gonna go viral.Thanks, Wade.Burnout isn't just a buzzword.It's a real and growing issue that impacts individuals, teams, and entire organizations around the world.As we discussed, it's even been recognized by the World Health Organization, and it's something we should all be paying closer attention to.One of the biggest takeaways from today's conversation is the reminder that recharging isn't optional, it's essential.Whether it's daily, weekly or monthly, finding consistent ways to reset is key.And as Jess pointed out, leading by example matters.If you want a culture that supports balance, you have to embody it yourself, especially in the workplace.This is something I personally struggle with, and I understand firsthand how easy it is to relentlessly go, go, go, in an attempt to- to do everything all at once.But I guess recognizing that you have a problem is the first place to start.We hope this episode gave you a chance to pause, reflect, and maybe even rethink the way you approach your own wellbeing.This was our first episode with a guest, and it won't be the last.We had a great time, and we're excited to bring even more voices into future conversations.Thanks so much for listening.Don't forget to like, subscribe, and tune in next week for more.Until then, take care of yourself.You deserve it.Compound Growth with Wheeler and Collin, sponsored by Kopeia Advisors.Reach out today!Yay!