Compound Growth

Episode 25- The Cost of Hustle: Why the 996 Culture Is Failing Us

• Compound Growth • Season 1 • Episode 25

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The “996” work culture — 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week — has found new life in Silicon Valley. But is working yourself to exhaustion really the key to success? In this episode, Wheeler and Colin sit down with returning guest Jessica Crowley to unpack the glorification of overwork, the myth of hustle culture, and the personal toll of tying your entire identity to your job.


They explore how the 996 mindset, originally born in China’s tech boom, has resurfaced in the U.S. startup scene — and why its effects can be devastating. From burnout and isolation to the pressure of ego and competition, the hosts reflect on the fine line between ambition and obsession. Jessica brings her expertise in burnout prevention and “life design” to explain how to build a career that serves your life, not the other way around.


This episode isn’t about rejecting hard work — it’s about redefining it. The hosts share lessons on balance, legacy, and how to create impact without sacrificing joy. Because real growth isn’t found in the grind; it’s in designing a life you actually want to live.


Find Jessica:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicamoorecrowley/ 
SubStack: https://jessicacrowley.substack.com/ 

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Credits:
Created By: Wheeler Crowley and Colin Walker
Production Assistance: Tori Rothwell
Editing and Post-Production: Steven Sims

number one, there's a movie with Dave Franco and Alison Brie called Together.I think I got all those names right.And it is a movie in which they are married.And they're married in real life.Oh, that's awesome.Right?So they're married in real life, and in this movie, their marriage, I think, starts to, like, come apart in some way.I haven't seen the movie.Okay.Full disclosure.This is speculation?I- I'm familiar enough with the plot where I think this is what happens.Okay.All right, so, they start to become attached to each other.Like, physically?Physically attached.So it's, it's on the nose, very in your face, you know, allegory or whatever.It's, it's- Mm-hmm.it's very clear what they're doing here.All right, so it's aI think it was an Australian production, but it's, for all intents and purposes, it's a US movie with US ethos.So they just released it in China, and studio, our, our audiences in China noticed that the gay wedding now was no longer a gay wedding.So there's a gay wedding in the movie, and in China, they used AI to replace- Ah.one of the faces of the actor- Why not a woman?s of theTo make one a woman.Why?Obviously their, the, the Chinese government- The culture is different.is not supportive of gay marriage.I actually don't know if it's allowed there or not, but either way they don't want, I guess- That.to support it.But they used AI to replace- Wow.a actor's face.I was watching an interview with, um, the Shark Tank people the other day, and Kevin O'Leary was talking about how he was doing some sort of commercial for something, and he had to fly out to Dubai to do the commercial.And they have, like, a whole recording studio set up where you sit down, they film you and all this other stuff, but you only need to go once and all subsequent commercials are done with AI, because the cameras are recording your body movements, your tones, like, everything.So he went once, they recorded him, got all his motions and everything together, and then future commercials, he doesn't need to be there for the recording, he just needs to approve the script.So they must, like, have him say a bunch of different- Yeah.words and, and phrases and then, uh, wow.Yeah, they do.They, like, track you, they get your tone, they get your voice, and then they can almost perfectly replicate you virtually on a screen.Wow.Yeah.What prevents that from happening- Nothing.without yourWithout your consent?Yeah.Nothing.That's the problem.That's very scary.Well, that's like that opener that we had where I was like, "How do I know it's you when it's on email?"Right.Or something like that.Global ID.Yeah.Which, I mean, how are you going to have the same ID system across all these different platforms?Yeah.You know, it's like Apple with Face ID, butWe had a client yesterday I was talking to.She is the daughter of another client, so it's multi-generational family household that we're working with.And I asked her what her financial priorities were forWe start every, every meeting with, you know, "What's the most important thing for us to talk about today?"Her biggest thing, well, she had a couple.One was that her dad was almost, like, all of his, uh, uh, cash was almost taken out of his checking account.He was scammed.And because she was on the account, she saw it happen.Oh.Like, if she was not a joint owner on the account, all the cash would be gone.He wa- he was convinced that the bank was going under or something.So somebody called him and told him that the bank was going to fail and they needed to transfer the cash out of that into, like, a backup bank or something along those lines.And he believed it, because he's- Oh, no.he's getting old.But because she was on the account, she saw it happen.So he approved having it transferred to an account that was not his own?Correct.But he thought it was his own.Mm-hmm.Like, he, they told him it was.It's like if, if we called a client and we said, "Hey, we're opening up another account for you.We're gonna transfer it over there."Which we can't do.They need to sign- Sign it.paperwork- Yeah.Yeah.That's nuts.Yeah, the amount of cy- cyber attacks and things like that that are happeningI mean, I'm sure it's actuallyI don't know if this is true or not, but my guess is when the internet first came out, it was probably worse.I don't know because- I, I think the ability to do more damage makes it worse now.Maybe.But there's way more security in place.Like, I remember growing up and having, like, if you had your password compromised, like, they could just go in and take your stuff.That's true.You know?Yeah.Like, so theBut, I mean, I guess the thing is is that this will always exist, because whenever a new security protocol comes out, there's people that are gonna try to defeat it.Yeah.Which is why Fidelity hires all of those people from the IRS.Right.Well, I think it's also, like, everything is online now.Like, when we were first growing up, nothing was online.My mom didn't- No.have an online access to her credit union, you know?Like, it was not- No, that didn't exist.Yeah.Yeah.I mean- That was not a thing.I remember when we first got a computer, but yeah, it'sI don't know.Some of the sophistication that's gonna be coming out with AI and being- Yeah.able to do these attacks is gonna be nuts.Welcome to the Compound Growth Podcast with Colin and Wheeler, where we talk all things growth.From financial growth to career growth, personal development to societal progress, we explore how each layer builds on the next, compounding over time to shape who we become.Each week, we break down complex ideas and emerging trends into clear, actionable insights.Because growth isn't just about numbers, it's about understanding the world and our place in it.The information in this material is for general information only and is not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual.Investment advice offered through Integrated Partners doing business as CoFi Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor.Integrated Partners does not provide legal, tax, mortgage advice or services.Please consult your legal tax advisor regarding your specific situation.Past performance is no guarantee of future results.All investing involves risk, including loss of principle.No strategy assures success or protects against loss.The economic forecasts set forth in this material may not develop as predicted and there can be no guarantee that the strategies promoted will be successful.Jessica Crowley is back with us again today, and Jess, I wanna set you up for- Mm-hmm.I'm setting you up for success.Okay, good.Right off- right off the bat.I'm glad you're not setting me up for failure.No, no, no, no, no.I'm just gonna- I'm gonna- well, I'm gonna- this is like a volleyball thing, right?I'm gonna just pop it up there and you're gonna spike it down.Okay?Okay.All right.So 2 weeks ago, maybe 2 weeks ago, a week or 2, CoPi team was sitting around the table and Colin came up with 1 one of his fun party questions that he likes to come up with.I'm glad you brought this up because I was actually going to ask Colin about that.All right.Let's get it out of the way.So- So- so Colin brought up the question.Yep.He said, "What kind of animal"No, sorry."What's your favorite animal?"And then that became, like, what kind of animal you'd wanna be.Right?If you weren't a human.If you could be any animal in the world.Right.Any animal in the world.All right.So Tory's answer.Tory, I think you said puma?No, you said cougar or something.Panther?Cougar?No, it wasn't cougar.She didn't say cougar.Not, like- not, like, in the mom cougar kinda way.Like, in the animal way.I just went jaguar.Jaguar.Jaguar.There's a huge, huge difference.I- I was very close with panther.I feel like jaguar and panther.All right, soThey're all in the same family.It's not like I said elephant.That would be better than saying cougar, I feel like, in that situation.I didn't mean it in a derogatory way.I meant the animal.This has taken a turn.Okay, so Tory would be a jaguar.Sorry, Tory.No, no.I didn't- I wouldn't be that's my favorite animal.That- this is the difference is- This is the difference.Oh.That's the difference.You didn't wanna be 1 No.because that's a tough life.Yep.It's hard to survive just, like, hunting and, you know.So you wanted to be what?I forget what I wanted to be though because then I feel like I changed my answer after you- what you said.Yeah, so let's- let's just get to Colin.Let's just talk about Colin.Oh, we're just gonna fast-forward?I thought this was, like, a round table type of thing.No, no, no, no.This- I really wanna talk about all of the creatures- But Colin's was so good.in the Earth.You- Okay.Well, let me back up before I give the answer.So as I was thinking through animals that I wanted to be, I've thought about this a lot because-I won't get into my parents believing in reincarnation, but anyway.I agree with them, by the way.Yeah.I- I don't disagree too, but apparently you can come back sometimes as animals.Sure.Why not?Okay.So-I thought to myself, "Well, if I'm gonna come back as an animal, I don't wanna be prey necessarily."Right.But to be a predator is also kind of crappy because you're having to go out and hunt for food.Most of the time if you look at, like, a lion in the wild -we'll edit that out.They're, like, starving all the time and skinny.Huh.That's true.Okay?You also want some sort of social network type deal.Not, like, in the phone type way, but in the you want, like, friends.So I thought ant to start.Originally.Okay.Original.Sure.He's- That's what you mean by ant, right?I thought ant because you have great, great society.You know?True.You're protected from most things.You have a nice house.You live in a city.Okay.Uh, first of all-none- A nice house.Underground.Look, it's all relative.This isn't the Empire State Building.Don't worry.None of this was the conversation.Well, I thought about this more afterwards.He thought about it aft- he's adding- He's adding more.I thought about it afterwards.No, same.I thought about afterwards too.And then I was like- It's a thoughtful discussion."I know what I said at the table isn't what I actually wanna be."Okay.But we're- you can't- like- You're 6 foot, 4.No, no, no.But I- I stand by what I said.You're fixing it in post right now.You can't do that.A seagull- Yes.is the best answer to this question.A seagull.A seagull.A seagull because- Of all the magical creatures.you hang out on the beach all day with your friends.No, you said with your boys.It's- it's more like- With your boys.With your boys.You can sit there.hanging out on the beach with my boys.You get to fly around, which is great.You have no predators.You're protected by humans.legally, which you wouldn't even know what that means.What do you mean you're protected- But you can't kill a seagull.What?To kill a seagull is illegal.What?Yes, that's true.What- You cannot kill a seagull.animals are legal to kill that are not hunted animals?Well, I was gonna say, any animal that's hu-I could kill a squirrel and the cops wouldn't show up to my house.Do you think the cops are gonna come looking for you for a seagull?They might try to get the seagull.If you feed a s- a seagull Alka-Seltzer, you can like get a huge fine.That's aIs that not a thing?No, because that's animal cruelty.That is true.No, I know.That's my point.And I will be subject to it because I'm a seagull.Oh, Colin.A seagull.So that, to me, isWho wouldn't wanna fly?You have unlimited food.You chill out on the beach all day with your boys.Yeah, you know why they have unlimited food?Because they take it- Yes.from humans.Yes.It's an easy supply source.And you also have fish right there.You got the ocean.That same day, I went to the beach, had some work d- that I could do at the beach.Yes.And I'm sitting there.I'd made my lunch.I went for a run.And then I sat there on the beach, eating my lunch.Looking at seagulls.Yes, and-giving them the evil eye.Yes.Yes.Knowing, knowing what you'd said already.Yes, yes.Yeah.I was like, "Seriously, Colin?"I can't wait to talk about this with him and-ask him, "Why seagulls?"That's my logic.They're so annoying.And- But if you're a seagull, you're not annoying to yourself.Maybe.I don't know.They're always fighting with each other.They are always fighting.I bet squirrels find us incredibly annoying.Yeah, probably.Well- We run them over all the time.That's true.SoBut, but the seagulls- Don't tug on her hair strands.they're always fighting with each other.So I'm sitting there- Okay.I'm eating my sandwich, and out of nowhere, a seagull comes flying down, grabs my sandwich that I worked hard to make-and- What a great life.flies off 2 feet in front of me and swallows the whole thing in one gulp.See, I resonate with that.I resonate with that because whenever Kaylee brings home food, I'm like, "You gonna eat that?"So, I'm just saying.You really made the perfect partner.Yeah, but- It's the perfect match.But then all the other seagulls got so pissed at that one who ate the sandwich.Because he didn't share.He did not share, and they were yelling at him, and then they came over to me, expecting me to have just some more sandwich for them.And- I never said which animal is the most likable.Just, just the one that you resonate with.Just the one that I resonate with.Because if you're a seagull, you don't give a shit if anyone likes you.No, that's the point.That's the point.You just- I'm sorry.You're just a seagull.Colin gives incredible shit what people think about him, soMaybe he doesn't want to and being a seagull- Exactly.I won't have to.Right.All right.Well, hang on.Give me a better answer than a seagull.Don't just criticize my answer.Dolphin.Dolphins get to play around in the ocean all day with their friends and their family.They- Fair.Dolphins are a good one.Yeah.I thought orcas too for a while.Okay, yeah.But- All right.That's better than a seagull.Yes.Okay, orcas.Well- You came in hot there.Like, you were like, you were ready.Dolphin.Orcas are family people, but I don't know if they have like friends outside their family.You know, like I don't wanna be with my family constantly.I think all those, all those seagulls are frenemies, Colin.They're not like- They're not real friends.They're not your boys.They're like your boys that want to steal that sandwich from you.Yeah.Okay.Well, wouldn't it be annoying to have to come up for air every like 20 minutes?I think everyone should come up for air every 20 minutes.Oh, oh, I'm like- Right?I'm justNo, no, no, but I'm just like in the air.Like, who's going to sustain my life?If you dive down, it's likeImagine walkingImagine going to the store, but then having to come back home every 30 minutes to take a breath from your house.I think you're looking at it wrong though, because I think it's really fun for them to dive up into the air and- IThat's true.They're pretty playful.I don't know what it's like.That'sI actually have a funny story about dolphins.So we did this sailing trip back in 2020 where we like sailed around the British Virgin Islands.And it was, um, Kaylee's family and, um, hope she doesn't hear this.We'll let her know.So, uh, we are on this sailing trip and there are dolphins that came up next to the sailboat.And there's like a captain who's manning the boat.And Kim, my mother-in-law, was like, umShe getsThat's her favorite animal, dolphins, so she got super pumped.And she goes, "Let's give them something that they can eat."And then she goes, "Grab chicken.Do dolphins eat chicken?"Oh, God.We're like, "How could a dolphin get ahold of a chicken?"Chicken in the middle of the ocean.Anyway, that has, uh, nothing to do with what animal you would like to be, but, um- That's funny.Dolphins- It's dolphin-related.Dolphins are valid.Dolphins are valid.Orcas are valid.But I think flying would be really sick.That's true.I'll give you that.You know?Flying is really fun.And you're just as happy on the beach and as you are in a Walmart parking lot.You don't know the difference.So- All right.If I were a bird, it would be a loon.I feel loon is the way to go.Hmm.Because you can fly.That's true.You canWhenHave you ever watched a loon dive?Like the way they- Yeah.They s- they goThey're under water for like so long and then they come up like halfway across the lake.And the best part is, they can kick a bald eagle's ass, soIt's true.I didn't know that.Yeah.Yep.I wouldn't wanna be an eagle necessarily because I feel like- No.that's a lonely life.Yeah.Yeah.And loons are very social.Yeah.They have friends who come visit from other lakes.Mm-hmm.That's fair.Yeah.And they have mates, they have mates for life.Yeah.Yeah.Okay, soBut a loon isn't that far off from a seagull.It's like when I said cougar to bear.They- loons would not steal your sandwich.Wow, wow.Totally different world.I think a loon would steal your sandwich if you left- A loon would never steal your sandwich.if you left your sandwich out.No.No.The loon wants nothing to do with you or your sandwich.No, they work hard for their food.Well, I know they're afraid of you, but wouldn't it be nice to not have any fear of humans?I don't think they're afraid of you.No.No.come, come really close to loons.Yeah.They just- They don't care.I gotta be honest, I haven't researched loon personality recently.So I don't know.Just from our experience.In our experience.What I do know is that seagulls are not scared of you.They will take your food.They will.They also have an abundant supply of fish 'cause they're by the ocean.Right.But do they eat those fish?Or at Walmart.No, they'd rather steal your sandwich.Yeah.Well, yeah, I would rather have a panini too.Just saying.How do they even eat that thing?With like one gulp.Seriously, it was impressive.Yeah.I have to say it was a little impressive.One gulp, the whole sandwich.I just- I would've killed that seagull and taken the fun.I feel like seagulls are my least favorite bird and then they're like Colin's idea.Yeah, I feel like they're everyone's least favorite bird.No, I know they are everyone's least favorite bird.I don't know, pigeons are maybe a close cousin, and worse.Probably, probably.Pigeons are actually quite smart.They're just worse than seagulls.Yeah.Pigeons are smart.I feel like some people have like a love for pigeons though.Yeah?Yeah.I don't feel like anyone has a love for seagulls.People collect pigeons.Like- Collect?What do you mean collect pigeons?Like on the roofs of- Like dead pigeons?in New York.No, no, no.They have like, they'll have like a little pigeon habitat on the roof.Oh, yeah.And they'll feed them and they'll like name them and they'll have themThis is where carrier pigeons came from, like the ability to send messages with pigeon is from people having like that training and, and kind of caring relationship with them.I feel like seagulls are definitely smarter than pigeons though.No way.Seagulls are not smart.I never- I never said seagulls were smart.We haveAll right.I said seagulls were smarter than pigeons.We have, we have no- They used to do a job.Right.Pigeons used to be employed by like the military.Yes, yes.However, those are all dead.It is different now.A new generation.Pigeons are not the same.This generation of pigeonsWhat's wrong with pigeons these days?And isn't a dove, isn't a dove just a white pigeon?Totally.Is it not?Is it really?I don't know.Is that true?I think it is.And so now they're a sign of love too.Wow.Pigeons are a sign of love.But pigeons don't know that they're a sign of love.This is the whole point.If you're a pigeon- There could be wild theories.you don't know any of these things.I think pigeons know.They know.They spy on you.Yeah.I'm sticking with seagull.All right.Well, look, you know- Wow.he's a man of conviction.All right.Look, when I come back as a seagull, I'm going to be sitting there one day while you guys are eating your sandwiches and I'm gonna steal your sandwich again.Mm-hmm.In a second life.Yeah.In my second life.God dammit, Colin.And you're gonna be thinking of me in this conversation.Why are you dead already?You're like a decade younger than me.It's likeThat's true.He's middle-aged.He's middle-aged.That'sI don't know future lives.Oh my gosh.You know what?People's lives are intertwined, so I'll be the seagull in your next life that takes your sandwich or whatever they have in the future.Colin.That's actually really nice.Yeah.You know what's gonna kill you early?A seagull?Hustle culture.Oh, transition.Oh.Boom.Look at that transition.Smooth, winner.The 996.Well, that was impressive.Yeah.All right.I do this for a living.So now that we know everyone's animal, uh, dolphin?Mm-hmm.I'm going loon.Loon's a great answer.Loon.How are youI transitioned us and you're still on the dolphins.Seagull this, and one thing that all of those animals don't have in common, apart from the panther.what I want to be anymore.Why are we putting pressure on this situation?I feel like you can be- I feel like I would also pick aOkay.Okay.Well, birds don't hustle.Hummingbird.Hummingbird, that's a good one.Birds don't hustle.Birds don't hustle.I meanI feel like hummingbirds kind of hustle.Well, hummingbirds probably is in my top 3 favorite animals, but not what I'd want to be.Yeah.Okay.'Cause they're so little.Can we move on from this?Can we move on from this?Sorry, I didn't bring it up for the record.All right, soHustle culture.We brought Jess back today because she, uh, I don't know, a couple of months ago now, came on to talk about burnout, right?And the causes of burnout, how to identify burnout, how to prevent burnout, which is the most important perhaps.And since then, we've seen an increase in, I guess, awareness or notoriety.People are more aware of this new 9-9-6, which is not so new, but this movement in Silicon Valley, San Francisco area, where you work 9 hours a day- No.It's 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM.9:00 AM to 9:00 PM.Right.6 days a week.12 hours a day, 6 days a week.And that sounded to me when I heard it, like the antithesis of what Jess stands for and what Jess is working with.So it seemed like a good reason to bring you back and talk about something that seems to be improving and becoming more popular, and it's, you know, new, it's not new to the world, but it's new to the States.Yeah.And I think it's like a newer version of something that's been going on for a long time.Yeah.So- Yeah.So the 9-9-6 culture actually started in China about 25 years ago.China.And it was actually also in the tech startup industry.Mm-hmm.Okay.And they had this culture of just work as hard as you possibly can and make as much money as possible.And it lasted for a while, and then eventually permeated into the rest of Chinese culture- Mm-hmm.um, into corporate culture, until, I think it was around 2018, a study came out that linked overwork with death and- Ooh.in particular, cardiovascular disease, which is the leading cause of death globally.Hm.Globally?Yes.Wow.So when that study came out, people started rethinking, "Is this actually what we want?Is this what we want to continue here in China?"And the answer is no.So they've moved away from it.Actually, in Japan, also they have a word for death by overwork.Um, I can't remember what it is right now.Karoshi.Karoshi.Yes.Yeah.Ah, you did your research.I did my research.So karoshi, they have a word, it's the opposite of ikigai- Hm.which I know you guys have talked about before.Yeah.Mm-hmm.So where you find your joy and sense of purpose in life.The opposite of that is overwork.Uh, death by overwork.So- Huh.So fast-forward, bringing it to America, so now it's in Silicon Valley and you have all these 20-somethings who work every waking minute.They also like to boast, you know, "I have a PhD."Poor, hungry, and- I think it's determined.d- d- I don't think that's actually it.I think desperate.I think it's desperate.Oh, poor, hungry, desperate.Yeah.Poor, hungry, desperate.As if it's a badge of honor.Yeah.I think that's the thing that has maybe changed a little bit, because it feels like Silicon Valley and, and, and the tech space in general has had like a hustle culture- Yeah.for a while.This new, eh, eh, badge of honor, it's almost like people have this like, they work 9 to 9.Yeah.You know, 6 days a week, maybe they take some days off.But when they take the Sunday off, or whatever day, they're not actually taking it off.Right.They are going on a bike ride with other people in the industry talking only about work.Yeah.Yeah.It's their whole life.Or their coworkers.It's- Yeah.E- every waking minute is living, breathing their, their mission of their company, which is in some ways admirable, that they care so much about what they're building, that they want to dedicate so much time to it.I was gonna say, Steve Jobs, right?And Steve Wozniak started in their garage and whatnot, and then that grew, but famously he worked every day, all day, forever.And he's idolized in a lot of ways- Mm-hmm.about building Apple and caring so much that even when he was kicked out of Apple for debatedly caring too much-they brought him back.Right.Because Apple was in the tubes.And when he came back, then things changed and it got better.But that is seen, as you said, in a lot of ways, and you said, as a badge of honor, and that's idolized in a lot of ways.Right.ButWheeler, it looks like you have something.I w- I mean, Steve Jobs died young of cancer.I was just about to say- Right.how did that end for him?Pancreatic cancer.Yeah.And so did he ever actually get to enjoy life?I don't know.See, and this is something that I struggle with sometimes too, because sometimes the moments in my life where I was the happiest I was working the hardest.Mm-hmm.Yeah.And- Hard work, it's not to say hard work is a bad thing or that you can't enjoy hard work, but- Right.what is it for?What's the purpose?What is the purpose of work?I don't know.I guess that's probably a little bit different for each person.Right.I think for me, it was probably to get ahead financially at the time.Mm-hmm.And then once you're ahead financially, is that just to say that you have a certain amount of money or is it to be able to use that money to live?Well, exactly.Right.I mean, what's the point of getting money if you never are able to use it and enjoy it.Exactly.Right.So all these people, um, are spending their whole lives building wealth, but for what purpose?By the time they realize that they've, you know, squandered most of their life on one thing, all of their friends have moved on, their family may not be around anymore, they haven't spent any time building a romantic relationship, a family of their own- Yeah.hobbies.Not, they haven't had any time to do any of those things.Yeah.It's kind of like, you know, when you go to high school and, um, you graduate, and some people kind of jump into marriage and kids and stuff much earlier, right?Whereas a lot of people go to college and they'll get out, and maybe the- their friends that didn't go to college have like a very different life.than you do.I think sometimes it's just, what's your- what's the cultural norm of your group of people?And arguably, you know, the people that you move away from, that you were referring to, the- the friends that have, you know, settled down and- and built a life or whatever, maybe those are not, you know, in the same cultural group as that 996 movement.And then, those 996 movement, they- they create that bond with the people that they're with, you know?Yeah.I was gonna say, if I was doing that now, I feel like it would be a huge burden because no one else around me is doing that.Like, it's just me and- Yeah.like, no one could relate to it.But if me and 10 of my friends, or 10 people at this company that I was close with, were doing the same thing and had the same life, like, have you seen The Internship?Yes.Yeah.'Cause it's, like, kinda like that.So you have that camaraderie, which is why I think they make the offices so nice in Silicon Valley, because you're there all the time.They're literally even sleeping there, so- Literally sleeping there.Yeah, yeah.in, uh, there was a recent Wall Street Journal article that came out about this, where they- Yeah.interviewed a bunch of the CEOs and founders of these startups that are boasting the 996 life.And they have cots with blackout curtains around the cots.And one of the CEOs said, "It's like sleeping in a coffin every night, but other than that, everything's fine."Yeah.Like, really?Is everything fine though?There's- Some of them had tattoos, right?Like tattoos of their com- They had their- Corgi.Corgi tattoo that was like'cause that was the symbol of their company.Really?Yeah.Jeez.Which is, I thinkI wonder about how representative this is of the- the time that we're in right now, where you have all these companies starting up.Like, this- the increase in startups, it- it expands and contracts, and we're in an expansion mode right now, where there's all this opportunity, this perceived opportunity with AI, uh, with private companies staying private for longer and then increasing your wealth that way versus the public sector, public stock markets, et cetera.I- I think the- the question is, why do they do this?Are they trying toIs it for their ego?Are they trying to improve the world?No.Do they f- They- they actually address this in the Wall Street Journal article.Okay.They talked about, it's not about building their wealth, actually, because- Right.they can make more money working as a programmer- Doing other things, right?Yeah.for a big company.Yeah.It's not about, um, making the world a better place.They actually said this.Okay.It's about their ego and a sprint to the top of the mountain.So, they know that there's currently a lot of opportunity and they all want to be the first, to be the most successful.Mm-hmm.Is the top of the mountain gauged by financial success?I'm not sure what it's gauged by.I think it's probably by market, um- Hmm.success in the market, being- Yeah.first to launch the most successful product of whatever it is they're doing.And in a lot of ways, um, this is what scares me the most because most of these companies are working in the AI space.So, the AI is being engineered by people who are not sleeping or eating or taking care of themselves, and this is what we want our society to be built on?Um, and for people to go to, you know, AI and ask how they should live their lives, built by people who are not actually living life.Right.See, I think this might actually be a common misconception because engineers are- we're past the point of people con- defining AI.AI is starting to define itself.It's a, it's a learning tool, right?So it just, it just soaks up everything.It's about- It's this amalgamation of all data.Right.Yeah.So it- it'sThe more data it has, the more interaction with you it has, the more it becomes its version of itself, right?Right, but it's- It's less programming.But it is engineered by humans, and I think that is really important to keep this in mind.I have a close friend who is working on a new AI chat, um- For moms, right?Yes.Yeah.So, it's called Confidant.Yeah.And it is built by moms for moms, because they realized that there's actually a huge hole in the market where you could go on, um, ChatGPT and ask, you know, "How would I create an event for, uh, International Women's Day?"And the response they got was, "I can't help you with that."Now, that was athat's an anecdotal thing that you shared, right?That's something that was shared with your friend.It wasn't her experience, it was- It was someone who then came to Con- Confidant- Right, yeah.to get the answers they were looking for.Yeah.Well, this is kind of like the, the things that they say to watch out with AI, right?It's there are those things that can happen, and then when we tried it, it planned a great event for us.Yes.Right?So that's- Did learn.a learning opportunity, for AI.Yeah.But someone didn't think ahead of time to w- oh, thein contrast, the person had then said, "Okay, how do I plan a day, an event for, for men's equality?"Right, right.And then it had, like, a great- It was called, so it was Women's Equality Day- Yeah.Men's Equality Day.TheChatGPT had an answer for how to plan an event for Men's Equality Day.Right.So that concerns me.I find that, I find that, I, I don't, I'm, I'm not debating it, but I find that hard to believe.Like, it, it just didn't, like, it has to, by nature, spit out some sort of factual answer.Well, sometimes, hey, n- AI will tell you when they're unable, whenLike, ChatGPT will tell you when it's unable to help you with something.Right.Um- Like if you're processing too much data or something like that.Right, yeah, yeah.Like, did you see the recent thing where people are like, "Count from one to a billion"?No.Why would you do- I don't know.thatI feel like some of the things- If people are just messing with it- Yeah.and it's like, "I can't do that."So they go into these arguments to try to get it to count- Right.and, um, anyway, it says, "I can't do it because it's too much processing time."Yeah.Yeah.I mean, regardless of, of, you know, the s- the stories that we hear, you know, how, what, what else is happening around that story, the point is that AI is learning from our current community, right?Our current society.And all of our historic, you know, knowledge as well.Like, it's- Yeah.So right, I, I think to your point, Jess, if something bec- if something permeates the culture and becomes culturally accepted- Mm-hmm.then that's what AI is going to assume is the accepted way to be.Correct.Yeah.So that's what my concern is as it kind 0 relates to the 996 culture.Yeah.If that is the culture and- Yeah.they're creating the technology that's going to then define the rest of society, my concern is that this is going to permeate the rest of our culture and it'll be, you know, making it more socially acceptable to end up in burnout zone.Yeah, it's kinda funny because, like, a lot of people are fearful of AI cutting their jobs or getting rid- Mm-hmm.of their jobs and then I know, like, the amount of hours worked has gone down dramatically over the last 60 years from basically where it was in the assembly line days.But, um, what this is basically saying is because we have these people and companies that are influencing so much our culture right now- Mm-hmm.through AI and everything else that that will have an impact on our own work/life balance.Right.Yeah.Exactly.Which I know you don't love work/life balance, but yeah, the 996.Well, because I think the concept is- Is flawed.Yeah.It's very flawed.Yeah.It's not about balance.No, yeah.So what is the issue withOkay, let me put this another way.When you're a, a young parent and you have young children, y- you've pointed this out in the past when I've complained about some of my longer days, and you provide perspective.Do you remember back when?know, do we remember when our daughter went to daycare from, you know, 8:00 to 5:30?Mm-hmm.And then we, before that, were getting her ready for daycare and getting her day going?After that, coming home and taking care of her until she went to bed.Is that different than theIt's just as exhausting as 996, right, being a young parent.So is it the, the lack of variety or dedication to the wrong thing?Like, what is the issue with 996 exactly?It's that you're putting all your eggs in one basket.Mm-hmm.Right.And then what happens when that one basket goes away?Yeah.So my concern with these people is that they're putting their entire identity on one thing.Yeah.And you talk a lot on this show about balance and, uh, the, it, from the perspective of not being perfectly equal in every bucket, but about having to diversify your life the same way you diversify your portfolio.Totally.So if you're gonna do everything on one thing so obsessively, you're defining your entire identity around this one thing, your work, and that becomes really flat.You're a one-note person who has no interests outside of that one mission.Mm-hmm.And what happens to all of those people who are sprinting their way to the top of the mountain and they're not going to succeed with their product in the way that they are dreaming of?Because I would also argue that whatever success they're chasing is not going to be enough for them.There's always going to be more.That's probably fair, yeah.So they're always gonna feel not quite enough.Yeah.I, uh, heard something the other day that I thought was kind of interesting that I'd like to get your take on, which is, I think, um, basically the saying was, is that society has life backwards for a lot of people- Mm-hmm.where when you're young you're prioritizing school and that's all well and good, but then you graduate from college, and then you're supposed to get into this career.And you're supposed to sink your teeth into this career, very similar to what we're talking about.And this career needs to be your sole focus for the first, like, 10 to 15 years of your graduation.Then once you've made it, you can then start thinking about family.Mm-hmm.And it's just, like, that's backwards.It should be- your family should be first and your social network should be first because you can always do your career.Yes.Yeah.That was Charlie Kirk that said that.Interesting.Yeah.And I- I saw this 2 nights ago, actually.It was pushed to me and I was just like, "That's an interesting thought."Yeah.Because I would've thought, well A, I've never considered that, but that's a good point because everybody's rushing into this career- Mm-hmm.to try to tackle this mountain.Right.But the mountain's always gonna be there.And Kaylee's struggling with that a bit right now because she's been going to PA school and all this other stuff.Now she's graduated, but she's 30 and she's like, you know, "I wish I would've started my family sooner because I could've done a PA at any point- Mm-hmm.um, like, in my life, but, like, I feel so much pressure from society to, like, be and do this while I'm young."Yeah.I think it is- is tricky because when you're young you have more energy to- Do these things.continue the- the graduate studies, um, and I speak from experience on that.I took 8 years off from between my undergrad and my master's degree.And I was with, uh, all these recent graduates, and I felt like the old one at, you know, age 28, 29.Yeah.And, um, I had more trouble getting back into school when I was, you know, 8 years out because I had taken that time off to work, but it was like, uh- Right.So I think also imagining having a young family and then going back to school, logistically that's pretty tricky.Yeah.So I think it's also not about do this and then that.It's more of an integration, and that's why I like the idea of work/life integration better than- Yeah.work/life balance because it's not about choosing one thing over another.It's about figuring out how to weave them together in a way that makes you a more interesting, dynamic, well-rounded person.That's fair, yeah.Do you think society rewards you these days for that balance?I don't know.I guess it depends what your idea of reward is.I don't know either.Yeah, who is societyLike, what are we looking for from society, like acceptance from society?I think the- the Charlie Kirk thing that you just brought up, I'm- I'm confused because, to your point, it suggests that there are just chapters in your life and you should reorder the chapters.And I'm not sure I understand how.It- it's- it's almost like, you know what would be really great is if you only watched TV with your eyes closed, and then you could really hear the audio better.It's like what?Why does thatBlind people are a thing.You know what would be great is if you could start a family and then also have all the money you need to pay for daycare and to save for college and- Well, that- that- that wasn't the point.Hang on.So- so that wasn't the point.The point was is that people are putting off having families until they have their careers set.I don't know that that'sI think they're putting off family until they're readyThe reason I think a lot of people put off family is because they're not ready to settle down into that life.There's so much responsibility that comes with having a family.It's not about, like, getting to the CEO seat and then family.I- I totally agree.I think actually when I think about myself if I had been a mom at age 22, I was nowhere near ready for that.Right.Yeah, neither was your husband.And my brain was not really developed to have- Yeah, I definitely wouldn't have been either.Yeah, no.So the idea of just launching a family right away just because society or someone says you should is a horrible idea.Yeah, yeah.You have to figure out who you are and what you want in life before you introduce another life.But that's exactly it for a career, too.Like, at 22, I had no idea what I wanted to do as a career, and I really didn't know that I even wanted to be an advisor until I was in my late 20s.Right.But you go and you do all these things, and you try.I mean, I can say personally I have put off having a family because of finances.So that, to me, is something that I've thought about a lot as we talk about it more.But with Kaylee, Kaylee's like, "Well, I would have had a child at 24 if I could've."You know?Yeah.So it's different.I think the- the issue that I have with this is actually the, um, gender difference, so- Yeah.i- if people were to take that approach, the gender divide between men and women succeeding in the workplace would just deepen because- Mm-hmm.Fair, yeah.the studies show how difficult it is to re-enter the workplace once you've taken time off.100% So if you haven't even put in the time to figure out what kind of work culture you like, it's not even about the job.Like, what kind of environment do you want to be in?Right.If you haven't even spent any time doing that, then how would you even know where to begin "re-entering," quote unquote, the workplace?Well, that's the thing is, like, I know that if I was in a corporate job or one of these 996 jobs, if I was to have a child, that would set me back years.Yeah.You know?And if I was in Europe though, and if I had a paternity leave- Mm-hmm.that was set up and governed in a way that it was appropriate to do that and I- didn't set me back, that'd be a completely different story.But I mean, most companies, even the company we just left, I mean, paternity leave was a thing for 2 weeks.I mean, I didn't have paternity leave.You know?So I- I don't think though, backMy point with the, I think, the misconception or- or what's n- what's lacking in the comment that you brought up is that there is no world in which you're rewarded for establishing a family first.So it doesn't matter what you think should be done societally, it's not gonna change.Right.So it's this is the world that we are operating in.And I think you brought up something, we were at our daughter's open house, you know, back to school night- Mm-hmm.the other, the other week, and they were talking about how in 6th grade they do a, like a career test, what's that called?Career exploration.Career exploration thing, so they, like- That's cool."You're gonna be a doctor."Yeah.Or like, "You're gonna be a teacher."Or it soundNot "You're going to be," but it sounds like you would be a good- You pick one and you research it and you present it to people in a poster and- Right.explain, you know- Right.what does it mean to be a professional.But they also do a, like an exam that, where they get these re- An assessment.An assessment, thank you, where you get these results.And you said something that I thought was really good about not imagining what kind of job you wanna have in the future, but what you want your life to be.Yes.I always said that to Kaylee, yeah.Exactly, it's about designing your life.Right.Right.And, and so I asked Michaela if she'd be cool with it if'Cause they asked for parent volunteers- Yeah.to come in to this class, and I asked Michaela if I could go in and talk about the life design process and asking the kids, "Okay, I know you're excited to explore these different careers, but before you do that, I want you to think about when you grow up.So p-picture yourself 10 years from now, what kind of person do you want to be?What kind of environment do you wanna live in?"Right."Do you wanna live in a city or in the country?Do you want to live with a bunch of friends?You know, what do you want your life to look like?"And surprisingly, she was actually excited about the idea of me coming in.Yeah, well- That's cool.But she said-"Only one of you."Yeah.Yeah.She- she's like- You both come in."Mom will come in for this," and- and I said I was, I would come in and talk about finance, and she's like, "Both of you?"Yeah.LikeNo, one or the other.Yeah.Yeah, it's just- Yeah.It's justAnd then, and then she realized that sh- that might hurt somebody's feelings, so then she's like, "No, you can come in too, it's fine."I guess.Yeah, that's fair.I, uh, was talking with my sister the other day and, um, she is a surgical oncologist which, you know, took her a lot of years to get to that point.Now she's 38 and has just settled in her career and she was like, "If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't."You know?And she was just like, "Me and all my friends have so many regrets, like about this life that we've chosen."She's like, "I make a lot of money, but I have no free time.I don't have a family.My social circle's very tough."She was just like, "If I would've gone back, I would've prioritized things completely differently."But when you're young, you think, "Oh, I should make money, I should have this big career, I should do all of these different things."But now that she's in it and, um, it's tough and- So it's a different version of the 996.Probably it's- it's probably 8-12-7.Yeah.You know?Yeah, it's worse.Yeah, yeah.Where the same end result is there, that she doesn't have, um, enough time to spend on other things.And that's our healthcare system- Yeah, right.but the problem is is that no one wants to change the healthcare system because no doctor that went through that wants another doctor to come up without having gone through what he- they- they went through, and that's, like, a tough situation.Yeah.You know, uh- I wonder if that's true or if, you know, the doctors themselves can't change the system.It's probably both.You know, like, I don't know, I- IWe talk about this a lot.Yeah.Like, whether or not you would want a financial advisor to have as much success so quickly without having to go through the grind.Yeah, because it's easier to bring somebody in to work with clients and say, "These clients would really benefit from some extra support.We'd love for you to work with these clients," versus you hire somebody and say, "Go find clients."Right?So it's easier to set them up that way.ButAnd it's easier for them, right?For the- Yeah.the young advisor starting out.But then they don't have some of the experience, life experience, or the experience of, of building something and owning something and creating relationships that mean more maybe than they should.But it's just like a process- Right.that you can kind of fast-forward through or you can live it.So it's not about the hazing.It's about- No.gaining the life experience in order to- Yeah.have that, um, inform what else you do in that career- Yeah.because you need that skill set.ItWell, need is a differentIt's not that it's needit's necessary, it's just that there are 2 different paths and we don't know which is the right one.And I think that's, that's really, like, an important thing to focus on.In general, we shouldn't sit here and say, "Don't do 996, don't have a family when you get outta college."I'm sorry, I'm gonna say don't do 996- Okay.Yeah.Yeah.because I actually think it's really unhealthy.But I don't wanna putI don't wanna put things on people.I hear what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, but I also want to m- make sure that we're arming people with information and allowing them to make their own choices.Right.And I think we don'tYou know, for example, Kaylee's sister, uh, Kaylee's sister- My sister.Colin's sister- Yeah.regretting the med school.I, I don't think she should be living and saying, "I regret this."I think she should learn regret isn't the right choice, but- Because my question for her is, what's stopping her from making a change?She is, she's going back to school.There you go.Amazing.Yeah.For another 2 years.Okay.Yeah.For what?So she's thinking about going back and doing dermatology.Okay.Yeah.So- Because it'll give her more time outside of work.Freedom and flexibility.Yeah.But she canIfMy point there is not necessarily that she can make a change.It's how you look at the past.And I was listening to Matthew McConaughey, has another book that just came out, and he was talking, he's on the Rethinking podcast with Adam Grant, and I was listening to that.Oh, I saw this.Yeah.Yeah.And he was talking about we, we treat mistakes as if they're still happening, you know, and we are embarrassed or ashamed because we made this mistake in the past, even though that's not you right now, that's you back then.Mm-hmm.And if we look at that and we feel shame about this mistake we did or we made, then we're stillwe're reliving it.We're not ever escaping that mistake.Instead, we should be able to look at it and learn it and look at it with hindsight and say, you know, "What a stupid thing I did.I canYou know, I'm so happy I'm not that person now," or something that shows progress.Right.So you're looking at it from- Or in this case, hopefully, the guys at work, 'cause it's mostly guys working the 996- Yeah.They're living that.Hopefully, they will get to a point where they'll realize they want more out of life and they can look back at this time not with regret or looking at it even as a mistake, but learning from it.And- Yeah.I know you talked about this recently, um, with Tory, um, about how it's not about regrets, only lessons learned.Right.Yeah.Yes.Character-building moments.Right.Yeah.Yeah.And, you know, I've changed careers 3 times and every time I haven't looked at it as a mistake or- Right.You know, I evenI went to grad school right after college, uh, for interior design while I was working full time in that industry.Yeah.And then after a semester, I realized that's not the route I wanted to continue on.But that wasn't a mistake.And now, full circle, I look at myself as a, uh, life designer.So- Yeah.I'm integrating some of the design principles I learned in that first career and integrating it into what I do today.Yeah.Yeah.When I look back atI, I say, the things that I went through when we were grinding it out in the beginning, um, I think, like, that was one of the happier times in my life, like I was kind of saying, when I was grinding it out- Yeah.a lot in the beginning.And now I look back on it and I have to say, like, I'm, I'm proud that I was able to get through that.But, you know, of the 92 kids that we started with, it was me and Jason, one other person that made it through.And, um, the other 90 didn't.But i- it's, it's proud when it works out.I don't know what it's like on the other side, but I failed at other things too that I tried- Mm-hmm.really hard at.So I guess what I'm saying is I think hard work is really great because I think it would be really difficult to be proud of where you're at if it's just easy, you know?True.And that's where I kind of start with it.Yeah, I don't think the issue is about hard work.It's about not leaving yourself time to be anything other than that one identity.Yeah.It's like ifIt's one thing to work hard but it's another thing when it's, you're right, like it's your whole identity.Yeah.And that's what you use to like literally carry you through your life.Right.Yeah, it's- I think itGo on.It's not about that being your entire sense of self-worth.Yeah.If that is, then what happens when that thing doesn't work out or isn't as good as you imagined it would be?Right, yeah.So we're not saying that hard work is bad.No.We're saying hard work is good but what we're also saying is, is that when you- Leave time for other things.only doing work and that's your sole identity, and that's actually where we see a lot of people struggle with retirement.Exactly.Right.Because when people retire and their whole life has been their career and they know nothing else, then what do you do with your time?Exactly.And all of your self-worth that was tied up in that.Right.So then what?Exactly.I think it's really important to understand why people are drawn to the 996.It's kinda like you, you guys have talkedBoth of you brought this up today, it's, is it money-related, is it non-money related, is itLike, what's the top of the mountain and what's the summit?I think for some people it's because they can look at the Steve Jobs or the- Right.Jensen or the Sundar or, or Elon or any of these guys and they say, you know, those areThey're like heroes to those people.Mm-hmm.Right?It's like, when I was a kid, we had sports heroes.That was like the biggest thing that I, I think most, most people, most young boys anyways would aspire to be like a sports hero first before other things.And then it seems like those heroes get replaced by other maybe role models or people you respect or whatever.But there are these kind ofThere's the Mount Rushmore of tech, you know, tech heads, tech CEOs- Yeah.tech leaders, tech founders- Icons.icons, et cetera, that they respect and they want, they aspire to be.And I think there is probably a sleeve of people, a sleeve of founders, 996 folks, that would do it for that reason and then maybe some that would do it for finance, you know, financial gain, and then others for a completely different, you know, personal reason.Like, when I when I'm drawn to 996, like I feel myself sometimes saying, "Oh, well how much could I achieve?"Like, "How much could I do with that time?What else could we do with this company in that time?"Mm-hmm.When I feel that, it's not for financial gain and it's not to be Jensen Huang, so what is it?Like, where is that coming from?And I think that if you can identify where that's coming from, you can understand it and then determine whether that's the path for you or not.I think, I think about it in 2 separate, 2 ways, which is one, as a competitive person I see it as a win.Like when something- Okay, yeah.goes well in the business, I see it as a win.Mm-hmm.Or like if, if I was to put myself in the shoes of someone that's in the 996, if I got a billion dollars of seed funding in my company, I would be like, "That's a win," or an IPO is a win.So to me that's like a competitive thing is the way that I would probably see it.Um, the second thing is I agree with you that I don't think it's financial.I think it's probably tied to maybe some notoriety or ego.Yeah.It's definitely ego-driven.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Mine isn't.Mine's more shame-driven I think.Okay.Which is the opposite of ego.Yeah, I suppose it is.Yeah.Yeah.Well, say more about that, Baylor.Well, I, IWe were talking about this, um, recently.I feel like I have a need to do more, to do more, to do more.Tory asked me a month ago maybe, she's like, "What's working right now?"And I said, "Nothing."There's a lot that's working right now.Yeah.You just gotta know where to look.I don't even know.Was it working?I think you said something like itWhat's working or what's- I don't know.It's a conversation we had.We were just talking at the conference.What's going right?What's going right, right?Oh yeah, what's going right.Yeah.Like, what would you keep?You wanted to reframe every single thing, process we had.Yeah.And I was like, "But what would we keep?"And he was like, "Nothing."Nothing- I'm glad I wasn't here for this one.Nothing is asNothing is, is done, right?Um, and act-It's funny 'cause I'm, I'm easily influenced by things I just hear, right?And I just heard this Matthew McConaughey interview so now I'm bringing it up twice in this, this podcast, but he was talking about how theHe can be both incredibly proud of the work he put in to earn the Oscar, thethat he received, and also feel like it was not all the way there.Like, there was something else.He, he doesn't feel like he should've done something different but at the same time it's not nirvana.It's not like the best thing.And sometimes you don't know in the moment.Like, he, he, he's proud of the movie, he's proud of the work, he put every- everything he had into that role, and it's done and he can't go back and change anything.And now that performance has its own life that it lives.You know, you can have something like Dazed and Confused which like-uh, you know, set him up for his career and that was n- nobody went to see it in the theater.It was not, like, a hit in the theater- No.but now it's a classic movie that we all look at.At the same time, you can have something like, you know, Interstellar, one of the big, big movies that he was in that people went to see in the theater and then they, you know, kinda fall off.And then 10 years later, Interstellar's a big hit again, right?The point is that, like, the life that you live and the choices that you make, they outlast whatever they were in that moment.And- So it's legacy.Yeah, yeah.And IWell, which is something I always think about too.Yeah.SoYeah, but I think that's like creating art.Like, he's very focused on art.That's true.And I think it's very different to bring that into, like, this workspace.Well, I agree and I disagree.So to Wheeler's point, to stick up for that, I don't think Steve Jobs would've built Apple if he didn't have that in his mind to be a forever company, or to at least make a huge impact in the trajectory of the world.The same way that Sam Altman probably thinks of that with AI, in the same way that Wang thinks about that with NVIDIA.Like, I think a lot of these men, to go back to the ego, are trying to put their stamp on the world, which I resonate with.Like if- if I could, like, I think that would be kind of a cool thing.Yeah.You know?Yeah, and that'sI think that's impact.Like, there's a difference between art and impact.Like- Mm-hmm.we can leave an impact here, but it's not like we're creating something that is, like, art.I think you're both right and it-it's inextricably linked and that's the issue, is that when I listen to The Founders podcast and I study all these founders and I understand their approach, the Steve Jobs approach to arts et cetera, I can't separate it anymore- Mm-hmm.from the McConaughey approach.And it's all blended together in my head and then I don't know what the Wheeler approach is.Do- have you seen the movie Troy with Brad Pitt?No.Yeah, it's been a long time.It's been a long time.I actually remember the movie theater I was in where I watched that.Yeah, great, great movie.I haven't seen it in forever too, but there is this one line that you just mentioned that, um, brings this kind of back for me, which isHe's debating on whether or not to go to this huge war and he's the number one warrior in all of Greece and he was just like, "Well, why would I even want to do this?I hate the king."And he was just like, "You know, what is it that all men want?"And he was just like, "What?"He was just like, "To be remembered."Yeah.He was just like, "If you go to this battle, you will always be remembered."And then he immediately left and went.I think the question is, what do you want to be remembered for?Do you want to be remembered just for the sake of people knowing your name or do you want to be remembered because you left a positive impact on the world?Yeah.Well, there's the Maya Angelou quote- Yeah.right?People remember the way you made them feel, like- Yeah.it's- People won't remember what you- What you said or did.But they'll remember how you made them feel.Yeah.Right.And actually, bringing it back to the life design, uh, idea, it'sIt reminds me of the John Lennon quote- Mm-hmm.which I told Mikala I wanna share when I go into her class.When he was in kindergarten, they had an assignment and the teachers asked them to write down what they wanted to be when they grew up.Yeah.And he said, "Happy."And they said, "You didn't understand the assignment."And he said, "You don't understand life."In kindergarten.In kindergarten.Supposedly.Supposedly.But they don't even have kindergarten in England, so whatever, whatever.Right, but it's like, do you want to be remembered as someone who just, you know, worked super hard and didn't have relationships?Or do you want to be remembered as someone who lived a happy life and created more happiness in the world?Gandhi.Okay.Yeah.Yeah.Do you want to be Gandhi?What do youWhat do you want to be remembered for?Yeah.ForOh, man, that's a big question.I- I guess I want to be remembered as someone who lived a happy life and created more joy and love in the world.Yeah.I love that.Mm-hmm.Of course.That is nice.Yeah.That's why I- I mean-find- Heart rocks.heart rocks wherever I go.Because I- I like that, by the way.Wheeler was telling me about that the other day.Well, Tory's mom does it too.Yeah.I love that.I already love your mom.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.I mean, I think thereThe point is that it's all around us, you just have to be open to seeing it.And once I started finding these heart-shaped rocks and realizing there were so many that I couldn't keep them all and I wanted to give them away- Yeah.then I started finding more and more, because that's what the, the universe is just there providing us with wonderful things, we just have to be open to seeing them.I l- Yeah.And if you're inside your office building, 996- You won't find heart rocks.you're definitely not finding that.Yeah.I think it's really important, we talked about this in some shape or form before, but there's, there's a lot of value to being a generalist.And y- y-The world needs specialists, I think, to a degree, but, you know, toIt used to be, in the medical field, everybody was a generalist, and now everybody's a specialist.And now, they don't know how to think generally.They only think what they are trained to s- be very specific in thinking about.And when we talk about, like, a young advisor kind of going through the process that's becoming a generalist, you know, if we talk about the people who are just dedicated to one thing, for 996, which I like how we call it, like, the 996, like a game or something.Yeah.Right.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Or it's a zip code or something.Yeah, yeah.But I think if you dedicate yourself only to one thing, then you become a very, to your point, a very narrow person.Right.And you don't know how it fits in with everything else, because you're so, you know, pigeonholed um, into one thing that you don't really understand the big picture.Yeah.So, you're just, you know, living life with blinders on.Yeah.What do you want to be remembered for?You can't steal Jess' answer.Yeah.I can't say, "I have all these heart rocks that I collect and, uh, I leave them-" No, you don't." everywhere."You know what I think, actually, I struggle with, is I don't think that I can be rememberedLike, I'm, I don't think I'm capable of being remembered for, like, what I want to be.Wow, this sounds like a whole other episode- Yeah.to dive into.This is like a, this is like a, a therapy session- Yeah.that we need to do at some point- Mm-hmm.at, uh, The Alchemist.But, um, I think that, in general, I wanna beYou know, I've been in meetings where I can see where I provide some sort of relief and comfort and happiness, uh, for my clients.And those moments, I can, I, I can identify them and I can say, "This is, this is what I want."I want themThey're gonna leave this conversation, and they're going to remember the way I made them feel.Mm-hmm.And I want that in general, in my life.And yet, I have a hard time getting there.Like, when we were setting up for the podcast today, and, like, arranging the equipment and, like, people not sure where to sit and standing and whatever, I could feel the room was not at ease, and I could feel that.And I'm like, "I'm not putting the room at ease right now."I am just, like, focused on the task at hand, and we're setting up thisThe energy going into the recording of this episode is not right.And I can see that, and I'm like, "I gotta just take a deep breath and address that."But I think I am too often uptight or, like, worried or whatever, and that gets in the way of me making the mark or leaving the mark that I wanna leave or make.So, you're not convinced you're leaving the mark you wanna make?Correct.Hm.I feel like you are probably a little too hard on yourself- Yes.when it comes to this.Well, that's part of the issue.That's part of the issue.That is definitely part of the issue.And I think that- Yeah, becauseYeah, go ahead.what, what you guys do here is all about leaving a positive impact.And the legacy planning that you do with people, they're, that's going to help people for generations to come, because you're, you're breaking a lot of, you know, negative patterns.Yeah.I think- Hopefully.Yeah.Well, definitely.I mean, that'sIf we weren't helping people, then we wouldn't be very good at our jobs.Yeah.Yeah.You know?So, by the mere fact that the business is growing and you're getting referrals, you're doing a good job.Yeah.You know?But at the same time, the reason thatI, I think that, I used to feel like the reason that we were good at it, or that I was good at my job in many ways is 'cause I cared so much, right?But I, I think that worrying about things being a certain way, telling Tory nothing's good enough, um, and sitting here thinking about, like, how I should be doing more should s-I have a lot of shoulds.I have a lot of shoulds, I have a lot of shame, I have a lot of, like, push.And I used to think that made me a better advisor, and I think it actually gets in the way.And that's what I'm trying to reconcile right now.I think you need to spend more time with Tory.Well, that's why-this is why I knewI met Tory, and I, and I'm likeFor our first interview, I was like, "I need that energy."Yeah.I love that.I'm glad I give that off right away, 'cause wouldn't think I do.Yeah.I, I was like- You're good.You're a very calming presence.Yeah.That's good.Yeah.Calm, and I felt, like, confident.And, and that was like, "Okay-" Confident." I, I need that calm in my life."I mean, you've seen Forgetting Sarah Marshall- Of course.obviously- Yeah.with the, you know, do less.Yeah.Yeah.Pop-up note, "Do less."Not- "Do less.Get down."Do less."Don't even do it."Yeah.But I feel like- Think small.sometimes, sometimes you need a little bit of that.Yeah, yeah.I know, I know.Which is the opposite of the 996.Yes.Right?That is.So- I appreciate that.Yeah, it's a balance.I think every time I start to feel that 996 pull, I should identify it and name it, call it what it is- Yes.and say- Yeah." Okay, I think let's go to the movies."Yes.Have some me time.Have some me time.Yeah.Jess, was there anything else that you wanted to say before you left?Our, our s- our first 2time guest.Oh, thank you.Thanks for having me back.Yes, that's right.Yes, first 2time guest.Yeah, it's always fun.It is fun.Yeah, we like this.And next time, I think we should dive more into that, and I wanna hear more from Collin and Tory on what you want your legacy to be- There's not enough time.who you wanna be remembered for.Oh, yes.It's never enough time.Yeah.That would be a great episode.That sounds good.Yeah.I'm excited.All right.Thanks, Jess.Thank you.Thank you.That's it for today's episode of Compound Growth.The 996 culture might sound appealing when you're early in your career and eager to make some progress, but as we discussed, it's not a lifestyle we'll be adopting.Hustle has its place, but it's just as important to build something sustainable, something that allows you to grow without burning out.A big thanks to Jessica Crowley for joining us again, and sharing her insights on burnout and the signs to watch out for.Whatever path you're on, remember, success isn't about working harder, it's about designing a life that you can actually enjoy living.We are adding in a mail grab episode once a month to answer your questions, so please reach out with your questions that need some answering.Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Compound Growth.Compound Growth with Wheeler and Collin, sponsored by CoFi Advisors.Reach out today.Yay!